Difference between a deacon and a church manager is sometimes that the deacon is proud of the new carpet in the sanctuary and the manager wants to meet on the lawn so no one will dirty it up.
“I don’t mind the parishoners looking at their watches once in a while. It’s when they hold them up to their ears to see if they are still running…”
Like the young swain who told his beau, “Oh, sure, I’d wait forever for you…but you’ll be gone all summer? I can’t wait that long.”
The other side of long liturgies–which should be celebrations with our loving God and a renewal of our commitment to that God–is that they should end at some point so that we can go back–really be sent back–to our lives to make a difference with God. “Go in peace and love to serve the Lord, it is ended!”
Our faith is not about the liturgy; the liturgy is to serve our faith, so that we, in turn, may serve the world by bringing the God we have received with us to it.
Well if he doesn’t hurry up the service he will be causing hunger!
Is asking forgiveness for your sins the same as apologizing for your sins? There are some things I have done that are considered sins that I would not be willing to apologize for because to me apologizing implies you would undo it if you could.
I am on vacation this week and see we are off and running already.
Joe’s first comment is right on - it was like “church all day and dinner on the grounds”: People falling out of windows after falling asleep, meetings so crowded people opened holes in the roof to lower the sick. I actually enjoy a message that last near an hour with a bladder break afterwards.
On liturgy, I think we tend to borrow the formality from the OT as God was very specific in how He want to be worshiped, This covered clothing, process, singing and meals. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was hammering them for all the things they were doing wrong - the communion meal had turned into a drunken gorgefest. Spiritual gifts were being abused chapters 12 -14 and so some restraint was being called for by Paul. Think of Paul’s rules being like a lane at a bowling alley - if your not in the gutter, your OK.
That said - it is the power of the Spirit unto salvation AND for the manifestation of any gifts He bestows upon us. What is most important is they be used as prescribed within the boundaries of scripture.
What I am putting out here is the thought - that things brought in to a church environment that do not conform to scripture should be considered in the light of scripture and rejected - specifically I am still hitting on liturgies, but also “traditions”.
The comment on Glen Beck - he is a Mormon and therefore expects to be “a god” someday. His church has certain traditions and rituals. Mormons desperately want their cult to be considered christian - just as Jehovah’s Witness claim to be christian. Both these groups traditions are counter to the scriptures so should be rejected. End of rant - got to check work e-mails.
Good posts Joe - I don’t think your in the gutter.
LuvH8 - We can’t “undo” anything we’ve done. We can ask for forgiveness, and make restitution. But we just have to go on from that point, we can’t change the past.
Like someone said: “Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.” Many sins we’ve committed are a result of trying to cover up an earlier sin. I think as long as we acknowledge what we did was wrong, and avoid the situation that led up to committing that sin, I would consider that sufficient. Of course, I’m not God, so that is actually between the two of you.
Forgiveness vs. apologizing? Hummm…. I don’t usually hear the term “apologizing” when we’re talking to God, but it could be the same thing, although I think of human-to-human interaction. It probably depends on the intent - are you truly sorry for what you did, or are you just trying to smooth things over? bmonk will probably be better with the semantics than I can do.
Just want to make it clear, that when I said “restitution” that isn’t the same thing as “penance”. What I mean by “restitution” is by paying the person you wronged. For example, if someone steals something from a store, he (or she) needs to pay the store for the item.
This concept was taught in the Old Testament, but also mentioned in Luke 19:8.
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
Jesus did NOT rebuke Zacchaeus, so therefore, I take it that restitution should still be practiced.
“Penance” was practiced by the Roman Catholic Church during pre-Reformation days, where some people thought they could buy the forgiveness of sins. I don’t believe this is a current practice, but bmonk is the Catholic expert.
I kind of think luvh8 (relationship) was actually saying he wants to hold onto certain enjoyable sins so he won’t apologize for doing something he doesn’t regret.
I believe we all have those sins, from bigotry to sexual enjoyments to various abuses. I make fun of them at other strips because they have some relevance to the lives of the unsaved, but they are what usually drag us down, the idols we won’t let go of. H8 is at least being honest and saying he won’t let go of his. Some of us have to be saved for years to realize we’ve been clinging to them and some of us never do.
But, Mr Doty, liturgies and schedules of readings do not necessarily deny the Spirit.
It ensures that a wide variety of readings, covering the whole message of the Bible, are available to the Church, and the individual pastor does not choose only those readings that are conducive to his or her own ideas.
These messages from God are the standard against which our lives are to be measured. The whole point of a homily is to “unfold the meaning of the Word of God in a way relevant to this community in this particular time and place.” One reason I don’t bother keeping my homilies: the next time around, the old message will no longer be what the Spirit asks to say. That’s why we are told what the readings are to be, but the homily content is (almost always) left to the homilist.
When you speak of what is in 1 Cor on liturgies, I presume it’s primarily 1 Cor 11 and 14. A liturgy actually encourages participation of the community; since they know what is coming next, they know how to respond, with prayer, or listening, or offering themselves, or song, and so on. I’ve seen failures of liturgy, when the people didn’t know what was happening or going on. Once most of the people simply left. They were not able to participate.
Mr. Doty, Your comment on Forgiveness is right on. All that needs to be referenced is 1 John 1:9. “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Which I think is also what freeholder was trying to say.
Mr Doty hit a very key related verse “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”
There is a lot for all of us in that verse. Our stubbornness, our unrepentant heart, our wrath. God’s wrath, His righteous (holy) judgment
Actually, I am saying that there are things I’ve done that had end results I would not change. If I wished them undone it would be like wishing the end results undone to me.
Seeing as how I am not aware of everything that is considered a sin and in some cases whether or not intent counts, I cannot for sure say which sins I would be willing to give up and which I would not.
For example: lying
When it comes to lying I try to follow a more Wiccan concept which is (not exact wording) Do what you will as long as it harms none.
Usually if I am knowingly telling a lie, tt is because I am making up a story or teasing someone and I do it (for the most part) with the intention of telling the truth after.
I will also tell a lie if I can not avoid answering (or lie by omission) if the truth is more harmful than the lie, or it is not my place to state it. (but I try to avoid this)
A mom and dad were worried about their son not wanting to learn math at the school he was in, so they decided to send him to a Catholic school. After the first day of school, their son comes racing into the house, goes straight into his room and slams the door shut. Mom and dad are a little worried about this and go to his room to see if he is okay. They find him sitting at his desk doing his homework. The boy keeps doing that for the rest of the year. At the end of the year the son brings home his report card and gives it to his mom and dad. Looking at it they see under math an A+.
Mom and dad are very happy and ask the son, “What changed your mind about learning math?”
The son looked at mom and dad and said, “Well, on the first day when I walked into the classroom, I saw a guy nailed to the plus sign at the back of the room behind the teacher’s desk and I knew they meant business.”
@Mr. Doty, so do we–but we don’t want to short-circuit the process of getting to the resurrection by forgetting about the suffering and sacrifice for us that came first. The Gospel according to John speaks of the crucifixion as the hour of Jesus’ glory, when he was reigning and giving life to the world. Why not celebrate and remember all that? Or Paul’s remark, “I was determined to know nothing but Christ, and him crucified”?
And what is wrong with a standard liturgy service anyway? As I said before, it does allow the members to know what is going on, so that their trying to keep up does not get in the way of being with God. For example, how standard do your family rituals for, say, Birthdays or Thanksgiving get? Many families could not imagine a birthday celebration without a cake with candles and singing “Happy Birthday.” That’s what a liturgical structure offers us: the structure to pray and celebrate together, with the flexibility to do what needs doing here and now. True Liturgy is not a rigid structure imposed from outside, but a movement of the community, according to the lived tradition of that community.
Also, on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I know one fellow who went to a Charismatic Prayer session, and was moved to pray the Pater Hemon (Greek “Our Father”). Imagine his surprise when one of the other participants gave an interpretation of these strange words…
I was also reminded of another Catholic School story. It seems that one family had some children in the local Public School, and others in the parochial school. One very hot day in early September, the public school let the children out because of the excessive heat, but the parochial school remained in session.
When the kids who were at the parochial school finally got home, their public school siblings taunted them, “Ha, ha! It was so hot we got to come home and play!”
The Catholic school kids simply responded, “It was hot in our school too–but we offered it up.”
An agnostic is rowing his boat on Loch Ness when he spots the infamous huge monster moving straight at him. As Nessie towers and lunges at him, the agnostic shouts, “Please God, help me!”
Time freezes. A voice from heaven asks, “Why should I help you now? You didn’t even believe in me five seconds ago.”
The agnostic replies, “Hey, give me a break. Five seconds ago, I didn’t believe in the Loch Ness Monster, either!”
A plane full of retirees headed for Florida was gripped with fear when the pilot announced, “Two of our engines are on fire; we are flying through a heavy fog, and it has eliminated virtually all our visibility.”
The passengers were numb with fear, except for one… a semi-retired minister…
“Now, now, keep calm, folks” he said. “Let’s all bow our heads and pray.”
Immediately, the group bowed their heads to pray… except fellow near the back.
“Why aren’t you bowing your head to pray?” the minister asked.
“Well, I don’t know how to pray,” replied the passenger.
“Well, just do something religious!” piped up another well meaning passenger.
So the man got up and started down the aisle passing his hat…
Good Jokes. Unfortunately too many folks on the second joke have that same opinion. TBN is the poster boy for scams. The health and wealth gospel has done more damage in Africa. Here is a good example 7 parts to the article - Part 1 here: http://defendingcontending.com/2010/04/10/scam-into-blessing-part-1/
Good Point - Robertson is just as much an embarrassment as TBN.
This almost sounds like Barna research stuff “Most Americans practice a diluted and domesticated Christianity, not a vigorous biblical faith, a leading church growth expert said in Tulsa this week.”.
I would rather have a healthy church than a church growth church - look at “better life now” boy and Purpose Driven” guy. Also I guess Hybels Willow Creek seeker sensitive /emergent stuff - no meat. Joe - don’t get me wound up!
BTW - relating to the end of the article and China’s church growth - I was in China back in the Mao days and they showed me some of their allowed churches. I also found the “other” ones that weren’t supposed to exist - a lot of very sincere folks there
Plods with ...™ over 14 years ago
You do know what it means when the preacher puts his watch on the pulpit??
Absolutely nothing…
freeholder1 over 14 years ago
Difference between a deacon and a church manager is sometimes that the deacon is proud of the new carpet in the sanctuary and the manager wants to meet on the lawn so no one will dirty it up.
freeholder1 over 14 years ago
Believe it’s been called “convenient Christianity”. We can all answer “guilty as charged” at some point.
bmonk over 14 years ago
“I don’t mind the parishoners looking at their watches once in a while. It’s when they hold them up to their ears to see if they are still running…”
Like the young swain who told his beau, “Oh, sure, I’d wait forever for you…but you’ll be gone all summer? I can’t wait that long.”
The other side of long liturgies–which should be celebrations with our loving God and a renewal of our commitment to that God–is that they should end at some point so that we can go back–really be sent back–to our lives to make a difference with God. “Go in peace and love to serve the Lord, it is ended!”
Our faith is not about the liturgy; the liturgy is to serve our faith, so that we, in turn, may serve the world by bringing the God we have received with us to it.
runar over 14 years ago
Glenn Beck would hate this one.
ChukLitl Premium Member over 14 years ago
Wrap it up, Rev. There’s a game on.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Well if he doesn’t hurry up the service he will be causing hunger!
Is asking forgiveness for your sins the same as apologizing for your sins? There are some things I have done that are considered sins that I would not be willing to apologize for because to me apologizing implies you would undo it if you could.
DerekA over 14 years ago
I am on vacation this week and see we are off and running already.
Joe’s first comment is right on - it was like “church all day and dinner on the grounds”: People falling out of windows after falling asleep, meetings so crowded people opened holes in the roof to lower the sick. I actually enjoy a message that last near an hour with a bladder break afterwards.
On liturgy, I think we tend to borrow the formality from the OT as God was very specific in how He want to be worshiped, This covered clothing, process, singing and meals. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was hammering them for all the things they were doing wrong - the communion meal had turned into a drunken gorgefest. Spiritual gifts were being abused chapters 12 -14 and so some restraint was being called for by Paul. Think of Paul’s rules being like a lane at a bowling alley - if your not in the gutter, your OK.
That said - it is the power of the Spirit unto salvation AND for the manifestation of any gifts He bestows upon us. What is most important is they be used as prescribed within the boundaries of scripture.
What I am putting out here is the thought - that things brought in to a church environment that do not conform to scripture should be considered in the light of scripture and rejected - specifically I am still hitting on liturgies, but also “traditions”.
The comment on Glen Beck - he is a Mormon and therefore expects to be “a god” someday. His church has certain traditions and rituals. Mormons desperately want their cult to be considered christian - just as Jehovah’s Witness claim to be christian. Both these groups traditions are counter to the scriptures so should be rejected. End of rant - got to check work e-mails.
Good posts Joe - I don’t think your in the gutter.
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
LuvH8 - We can’t “undo” anything we’ve done. We can ask for forgiveness, and make restitution. But we just have to go on from that point, we can’t change the past. Like someone said: “Oh what a tangled web we weave When first we practice to deceive.” Many sins we’ve committed are a result of trying to cover up an earlier sin. I think as long as we acknowledge what we did was wrong, and avoid the situation that led up to committing that sin, I would consider that sufficient. Of course, I’m not God, so that is actually between the two of you. Forgiveness vs. apologizing? Hummm…. I don’t usually hear the term “apologizing” when we’re talking to God, but it could be the same thing, although I think of human-to-human interaction. It probably depends on the intent - are you truly sorry for what you did, or are you just trying to smooth things over? bmonk will probably be better with the semantics than I can do.
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
Just want to make it clear, that when I said “restitution” that isn’t the same thing as “penance”. What I mean by “restitution” is by paying the person you wronged. For example, if someone steals something from a store, he (or she) needs to pay the store for the item. This concept was taught in the Old Testament, but also mentioned in Luke 19:8. But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” Jesus did NOT rebuke Zacchaeus, so therefore, I take it that restitution should still be practiced. “Penance” was practiced by the Roman Catholic Church during pre-Reformation days, where some people thought they could buy the forgiveness of sins. I don’t believe this is a current practice, but bmonk is the Catholic expert.
freeholder1 over 14 years ago
I kind of think luvh8 (relationship) was actually saying he wants to hold onto certain enjoyable sins so he won’t apologize for doing something he doesn’t regret.
I believe we all have those sins, from bigotry to sexual enjoyments to various abuses. I make fun of them at other strips because they have some relevance to the lives of the unsaved, but they are what usually drag us down, the idols we won’t let go of. H8 is at least being honest and saying he won’t let go of his. Some of us have to be saved for years to realize we’ve been clinging to them and some of us never do.
COWBOY7 over 14 years ago
Freeholder
LuvH8 is not a “he”. Just sayin’.
:^))
bmonk over 14 years ago
But, Mr Doty, liturgies and schedules of readings do not necessarily deny the Spirit.
It ensures that a wide variety of readings, covering the whole message of the Bible, are available to the Church, and the individual pastor does not choose only those readings that are conducive to his or her own ideas.
These messages from God are the standard against which our lives are to be measured. The whole point of a homily is to “unfold the meaning of the Word of God in a way relevant to this community in this particular time and place.” One reason I don’t bother keeping my homilies: the next time around, the old message will no longer be what the Spirit asks to say. That’s why we are told what the readings are to be, but the homily content is (almost always) left to the homilist.
When you speak of what is in 1 Cor on liturgies, I presume it’s primarily 1 Cor 11 and 14. A liturgy actually encourages participation of the community; since they know what is coming next, they know how to respond, with prayer, or listening, or offering themselves, or song, and so on. I’ve seen failures of liturgy, when the people didn’t know what was happening or going on. Once most of the people simply left. They were not able to participate.
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
Mr. Doty, Your comment on Forgiveness is right on. All that needs to be referenced is 1 John 1:9. “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Which I think is also what freeholder was trying to say.
Mr Doty hit a very key related verse “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”
There is a lot for all of us in that verse. Our stubbornness, our unrepentant heart, our wrath. God’s wrath, His righteous (holy) judgment
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
freeholder
Actually, I am saying that there are things I’ve done that had end results I would not change. If I wished them undone it would be like wishing the end results undone to me.
Seeing as how I am not aware of everything that is considered a sin and in some cases whether or not intent counts, I cannot for sure say which sins I would be willing to give up and which I would not.
For example: lying
When it comes to lying I try to follow a more Wiccan concept which is (not exact wording) Do what you will as long as it harms none.
Usually if I am knowingly telling a lie, tt is because I am making up a story or teasing someone and I do it (for the most part) with the intention of telling the truth after.
I will also tell a lie if I can not avoid answering (or lie by omission) if the truth is more harmful than the lie, or it is not my place to state it. (but I try to avoid this)
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
WARNING ~ Catholic School Joke Ahead
A mom and dad were worried about their son not wanting to learn math at the school he was in, so they decided to send him to a Catholic school. After the first day of school, their son comes racing into the house, goes straight into his room and slams the door shut. Mom and dad are a little worried about this and go to his room to see if he is okay. They find him sitting at his desk doing his homework. The boy keeps doing that for the rest of the year. At the end of the year the son brings home his report card and gives it to his mom and dad. Looking at it they see under math an A+.
Mom and dad are very happy and ask the son, “What changed your mind about learning math?”
The son looked at mom and dad and said, “Well, on the first day when I walked into the classroom, I saw a guy nailed to the plus sign at the back of the room behind the teacher’s desk and I knew they meant business.”
bmonk over 14 years ago
@Mr. Doty, so do we–but we don’t want to short-circuit the process of getting to the resurrection by forgetting about the suffering and sacrifice for us that came first. The Gospel according to John speaks of the crucifixion as the hour of Jesus’ glory, when he was reigning and giving life to the world. Why not celebrate and remember all that? Or Paul’s remark, “I was determined to know nothing but Christ, and him crucified”?
And what is wrong with a standard liturgy service anyway? As I said before, it does allow the members to know what is going on, so that their trying to keep up does not get in the way of being with God. For example, how standard do your family rituals for, say, Birthdays or Thanksgiving get? Many families could not imagine a birthday celebration without a cake with candles and singing “Happy Birthday.” That’s what a liturgical structure offers us: the structure to pray and celebrate together, with the flexibility to do what needs doing here and now. True Liturgy is not a rigid structure imposed from outside, but a movement of the community, according to the lived tradition of that community.
Also, on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I know one fellow who went to a Charismatic Prayer session, and was moved to pray the Pater Hemon (Greek “Our Father”). Imagine his surprise when one of the other participants gave an interpretation of these strange words…
bmonk over 14 years ago
I was also reminded of another Catholic School story. It seems that one family had some children in the local Public School, and others in the parochial school. One very hot day in early September, the public school let the children out because of the excessive heat, but the parochial school remained in session.
When the kids who were at the parochial school finally got home, their public school siblings taunted them, “Ha, ha! It was so hot we got to come home and play!”
The Catholic school kids simply responded, “It was hot in our school too–but we offered it up.”
BoomBaby over 14 years ago
The met game starts at 1pm…then I am outta here
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
WARNING ~ Agnostic Joke Ahead
An agnostic is rowing his boat on Loch Ness when he spots the infamous huge monster moving straight at him. As Nessie towers and lunges at him, the agnostic shouts, “Please God, help me!”
Time freezes. A voice from heaven asks, “Why should I help you now? You didn’t even believe in me five seconds ago.”
The agnostic replies, “Hey, give me a break. Five seconds ago, I didn’t believe in the Loch Ness Monster, either!”
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
WARNING ~ Ignorance Ahead!
A plane full of retirees headed for Florida was gripped with fear when the pilot announced, “Two of our engines are on fire; we are flying through a heavy fog, and it has eliminated virtually all our visibility.”
The passengers were numb with fear, except for one… a semi-retired minister…
“Now, now, keep calm, folks” he said. “Let’s all bow our heads and pray.”
Immediately, the group bowed their heads to pray… except fellow near the back.
“Why aren’t you bowing your head to pray?” the minister asked.
“Well, I don’t know how to pray,” replied the passenger.
“Well, just do something religious!” piped up another well meaning passenger.
So the man got up and started down the aisle passing his hat…
DerekA over 14 years ago
Good Jokes. Unfortunately too many folks on the second joke have that same opinion. TBN is the poster boy for scams. The health and wealth gospel has done more damage in Africa. Here is a good example 7 parts to the article - Part 1 here: http://defendingcontending.com/2010/04/10/scam-into-blessing-part-1/
DerekA over 14 years ago
Good Point - Robertson is just as much an embarrassment as TBN.
This almost sounds like Barna research stuff “Most Americans practice a diluted and domesticated Christianity, not a vigorous biblical faith, a leading church growth expert said in Tulsa this week.”.
I would rather have a healthy church than a church growth church - look at “better life now” boy and Purpose Driven” guy. Also I guess Hybels Willow Creek seeker sensitive /emergent stuff - no meat. Joe - don’t get me wound up!
DerekA over 14 years ago
BTW - relating to the end of the article and China’s church growth - I was in China back in the Mao days and they showed me some of their allowed churches. I also found the “other” ones that weren’t supposed to exist - a lot of very sincere folks there