An excellent question. Having Obama speak at commencement is very appropriate and an honor for Notre Dame to have the POTUS give the speech, but Obama did nothing to earn that honorary degree, and honorary degrees in general kind of cheapen the real degrees that students actually earn. The whole practice ought to be done away with if a university administration really wanted to maintain the intrinsic value of that degree.
ND is private and can make their own choices. U.CAL Merced is a PUBLIC school and made theirs. What I found encouraging is that both Obamas spoke intelligently, with understanding to their audience to promote education, and conciliation.
A history of honorary degrees granted might embarrass most universities.
Let me get this straight; I am pro choice. I believe if a woman is pregnant, in most cases the right thing to do is to keep the baby. I just don’t think she should be coerced into doing it.
Anti-abortion laws don’t make sense because they just can’t be enforced. The cops and the State can’t follow every single pregnant woman everywhere all the time. They can’t even know which one is pregnant and which one isn’t.
When He made women, God entrusted them with the responsability to bear life in its first nine months (and men have always been envious, scared and jealous of that). He therefore gave them the ability (capacity and right are not the same thing) to terminate it. If the State denies them the right to terminate a pregnancy, it won’t take their ability to do so.
Cloning and stem cell search, though, is a whole new ball game.
The concept of an honorary degree is hard to understand nowadays because the institutions handing them out do not deserve the privelege, as they are far from worthy institutions of higher learning. Without Christ all human achievement is a hollow victory.
Ghandi and Buddha are dead. And the Earth, Air, Fire, and Water do not have spirits and are unable to communicate (they dont have mouths), even if they had conscience. Nice work deadhead; but the Truth can be ignored, maligned, or confused intentionally; but you can’t change it.
Pup: volcanoes, tornadoes and hurricanes, floods, and the routine brush and forest fires that wipe out human communities seem to speak pretty clearly to the intellect of the human species. Many of those same folks have “faith”, and been convinced that a guy waiting at a bus will catch a ride in their lifetime—it’s been 2,000 years- and he hasn’t gotten a transfer. Other forces in the universe go well beyond human comprehension to explain. We can marvel at them and wonder indeed how it truly began, if we are not constrained by dogma of our own self-gratifying creation. When humans acquire a greater spirituality to recognize and reject hatred, fear, and cowardice, and take some responsibility for their role in the universe, without the crutch of “organized devotion and submission”- maybe we’ll progress.
Thanks for bringing up the Cosmos, Dtroutma. Here’s what the Creator of said Cosmos spoke through His Prophet Isaiah:
“A voice says, ‘Cry out.’
And I said, ‘What shall I cry?’
‘All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
Because the breath of the Lord blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever.’”
(emphasis added by me) Isaiah 40:6-8 NIV.
And Peter re-iterated the aforementioned scripture in 1Peter1:24, emphasizing the need for a person to be redeemed by the Blood of this one and only real Christ (for Dale)(1Peter1:19) and to be born again by the word of God “for you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For…”All men are like grass, etc.(insert above reference)”.1Peter1:19-25 NIV.
Anthony you assume the worst of even pagans…look into the sayings of Epictetus for the sayings of a devout pagan. And consider the etymology of “Jupiter”. Jupiter means “High Father”. “Baal” means “lord” - so words and names are not necessarily important. After some study of the past I have found that men of all times were first intelligent, they were also skeptical; and even if they believed they were subject to become unbelievers quite easily (or even suffer for believing). The point I’m making is we are standing at the “end” of a line of much testimony by men and women who must have had very good reasons, through a multitude of experiences and backgrounds - to become believers in the sayings of one “heretical” Jewish Rabbi.
In conclusion, I am saying that all the testimony you need to find the Saviour of your soul is contained in an honest appraisal of yourself and your fellow man; and the Study of the Scriptures and the Gospels of Jesus, (which BTW, in the Hebrew means YHWH, or “Jah” saves.) God bless you!
Well, the spirits of the drinking fountain notwithstanding, let’s note that Notre Dame has a long tradition of bringing in people with controversial voices to hear what they have to say and to let them hear what those there are saying. Mario Cuomo made a famous speech about the Catholic issues surrounding abortion there. George WMD Bush was welcome. This media uproar boiled down to a bunch of outside agitators creating problems, less than 2 percent of the senior body boycotting and many others quietly and respectfully expressing their views while the president respectfully expressed his. This is a ridiculous, made-up controversy that had nothing to do with Notre Dame and everything to do with nutjob taliban christians who are in no way connected with the university or, in many cases, the Catholic church.
Something to remember when talking about Christ among other gods:
All the other religions in the world tell you how to save yourself. Finding a higher state of consciousness, praying to Allah, meditating on Buddha. They all tell you how to save yourself.
Christianity is the only one that says you can’t.
If you’re into apologetics, might I suggest Ravi Zacharias? The man is brilliant, but gentle, even with the most rock-solid atheists, new agers, and agnostics.
Thank you, LibrarianInTraining. I listen to Ravi Zacharias regularly! If I had more money I’d buy all of his cds. And its funny you mention Christ Among Other Gods (I haven’t read that one), I’m currently reading Jesus Among other Gods by Erwin Lutzer; which is sort of a companion to RZ’s book. Mr. Zacharias really cuts through the cacophony and noise of our modern culture to turn the focus back on God.
TJDestry I sincerely agree with you. The more debate the better. The more communication the better. But I notice the conversation is a bit slanted in one direction, whether its public-funded abortions, embryonic stem cell research, religion in schools, etc. - what are people worried about? Somebody would be accountable to someone with completely opposite views? Seems a little parochial and manipulative.
Puppy, when you figure out why you don’t believe in the thousands of gods described by man, then you might be able to figure out why I don’t believe in yours.
Yeah Dale you should get right on reenacting the rituals written 2,500 years ago by dirt-farmers which were then distorted by monarchs, Popes and other charlatans since that day.
Anthony, Persians lived near the Israelites for many years and had heard much of their Scriptures, so it is indeed possible that the Perisans collaborated the prophecies meant for the Hebrew Messiah into a myth of their own. (Israel certainly seemed to hold the beliefs of various pagan cultures in conjunction with their own scriptures. Hence the reason God condemned them to judgment under the Persian Empire later on. So it’s likely that Persians took the scriptures of the Isrealites and mixed them in with their pagan gods. A religion a la carte, if you will.)
History hold no record of an actual historical Mithra. History emphtically enforces from both secular and religious history that there was in fact, a Jesus Christ, who not only met all of the “qualifications” listed on that page, but also many, many more prophecies.
I suggest reading “The Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. He started out as an atheist researching to prove Jesus was a hoax. If you truly are “open-minded” I think you’ll find it fascinating.
“I suggest reading “The Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. He started out as an atheist researching to prove Jesus was a hoax. If you truly are “open-minded” I think you’ll find it fascinating.”
McDowell (who was no atheist) posits in that book that it is not supernaturalism that requires evidence, but that skepticism requires evidence. He does a headstand and tries to make others prove that “the sky is up”.
He further posits that lack of evidence is, therefore, evidence.
For example, McDowell suggests that resurrection has no possible scientific or natural explanation. Therefore, the resurrection of Jesus is supernatural and therefore, proven.
On Page 13, Mr. McDowell suggests, “For example-the resurrection of Jesus: A critical historian would want to check out the witnesses: confirm the death by crucifixion; go over the burial procedures; confirm the reports of Jesus being alive on the third day and the tomb being empty. Then it would be sensible to consider every possible explanation of the above data. At this state one would want to peruse other corroborative evidence and then draw an appropriate conclusion.” Fair enough. However, he then throws that out when he uses the New Testament to prove that the New Testament is true.
Daniel There is a revised version of the book called “The New Evidence” where McDowell does correct some of his logical flaws.
And I still go back to my favorite “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist” by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler.
Don’t be fooled by the poor examples of the “organized” church. The church at large has a huge responsibility for causing most of it’s own destruction. Rely on where the evidence leads. There’s simply more evidence for the loving God of the Bible than there is for anything else. Take it from one who’s studied nearly all there is out there. (And my grandmother did too, while running from God.)
The “laws” of textual criticism suggest there is no other event more attested to than the life and death of Christ. These are the same laws that substantiate your conclusions on other facts of history which are much less attested to…Plato, Egyptian Dynasties, Alexander the Great, etc. Hence, legally Jesus’ death did occur. Next you have to decide that the Apostles decided to endure persecution and martyrdom for an event they knew was a hoax. If you find that improbable, then you must decide if Jesus was who He said he was. I believe Josh McDowell’s thesis boils down to whether or not Jesus was a “Liar, a lunatic, or the Christ”.
Now, if you decide that it is impossible to know, you have to throw out all of Classical History as being unprovable and you probably should remain silent when you would speak against Christ or about any other Classical Historical event, because you have no way of knowing for sure what is the reality and it would, therefore, be a non-issue to you. (I apologize if I made anyone mad… the tone is hard to fix on the internet)
Thanks, Librarian, I do have the Turek book and The McDowell Evidence book too…I’m a procrastinator though…Another good book is How We Got the Bible by Lightfoot. For others interested…Zondervan’s NIV Study Bible is a veritable library of cultural, archaeological, linguistic, historical, and etc., information itself.
And anyway, it doesn’t matter to me. All the arguments in the world won’t convince anyone of anything. They only open doors for questions.
What I can do is pray for you. And that I shall. Every day. It has nothing to do with political this, or conservative that. Jesus instructed all of us to love our neighbors. And because I love you, I want you to find the joy I’ve found. And so I pray that He’ll reach out an touch your life in unforgettable ways. And that when He does, you’ll see He was trying to reach out to you all along! :)
NoFearPup, the Liar, Lunatic Lord scenario was originally coined by C.S. Lewis and is called the “Lewis Triumvirate.” I believe it was in his book “mere Christianity”. Lewis is my favorite apologist. He called himself London’s most reluctant convert and that God dragged him through the gates of Heaven kicking and screaming, because the last thing he wanted to admit was that Jesus was Lord. Lewis was a pantheist.
His book Surprised by Joy tells of how he thought Christianity was coming to an idea, when in reality, he was coming to a Person.
You shouldn’t procrastinate! The Bible calls us to be ready with an answer when asked about the gospel. Spend time in the Word. Find some time in your day (even 15 minutes will do) to read up on what God is saying to you. We’re called to encourage each other. So get hopping! :)
Librarian: I’m sorry, but I have never seen any testable evidence for any deity.
That’s not the point of religion, though. It’s not whether a specific deity actually exists, whether the events listed in holy scriptures actually took place, or anything as vulgar as all that. In fact, the search for Jesus, God, the Ark, and so forth actually distract from the reason for religion.
All religions teach a basic message. This message is the basic message of all humanity: That we are all in this together and to do for and to others what you’d want them to do for and to you.
This basic message is more powerful than any person, any place, any event, or any deity. This message exists in every story written since the dawn of man. Whether it’s the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or the Bible, that message shines through brighter than what might have happened to Han Solo in the Mos Eisley Cantina.
And it’s a message that is frequently lost when discussing religion.
Librarian, you might enjoy reading some of this man’s books:
http://tinyurl.com/pngof9
Also, Mithracism preceded Christianity, so I don’t think they could have borrowed from it. Much more likely it was the other way around, just like the Christians borrowed from the English druids later on (getting the Christmas tree, etc.).
OldLego I had you pegged as a Baptist. Thanks for the encouragement Librarian, excellent posts! You said that very well (Esp. your second post up). I myself belong to the Nazarene Church which is a splinter off of the Methodist line…
Daneil, I’m truly sorry you feel that way. All religions do not teach the same message. you assume by this “we’re all in this together and we just need to love each other” idea that man is basically good at heart. But we are not. Man is inherently evil, and has been since Adam and Eve. Most religions (particularly Eastern ones) assume you can overcome your evil by achieving a higher god-consciousness or by working it off through Karma. Judaism suggests you can overcome your evil by following the Law and making atoning sacrifice when you do break the law.
Christianity says you can’t overcome your evil. Mother Theresa is deserving of Hell under the observation that, good as she was, she was still a sinner and inherently evil. But if your sin was put on someone who wasn’t inherently evil and who never sinned, then the evil you were born with would no longer be accounted to you. Kinda like owing the national debt (Several trillion dollars) and facing going to prison if you don’t pay. There’s no way you could ever work it off in your lifetime no matter how good you were at making money. But if someone who owned all the money in the world were to tell you, “Nevermind. I already paid it for you. You don’t owe a cent.”
I don’t believe that Christian truth is “provable”. In “Miracle on 34th Street”, old Kris is “proven” to be Santa Claus, because the post office dumps bags of letters to Santa on the courtroom floor at his feet. Just a lawyer’s trick to keep a deluded old man from being sent to the funny farm.
The efforts to “prove” the “facts” of Christianity leave me similarly unimpressed (good intentioned though they may be).
But that’s the point, isn’t it? It’s faith, not proof that leads one to Christ.
Many years ago, I read Kazantzakis’ “Last Temptation of Christ” in a literature class in college. Many don’t lke this book because of the movie, or if they have read it, because of the “unorthodox” way Jesus is often portrayed. But the author’s ultimate point was that Christ completed his task, and died, when he accepted by faith that it was his purpose to die, despite the more comfortable and reasonable resolution of his fate offered by Satan’s “last temptation”.
Whatever faith is, its not facts, and its not reason. The best you can do is leave your mind open to it.
Bias disclosure: I am a lifelong Chrisian, of the Lutheran variety (sola fide).
That is one of the things that your personal religion tells you that, in my opinion, is the cause of all the wars of religion throughout history. This notion that “Only through my personal religion and/or its characters can you ever hope to not suffer for eternity” is, indeed, one of the great evils upon this world.
I am very sorry that you think that man is inherently evil and why, I think, your brand of Christianity stands alone here. You say that Christianity is the only religion where you “cannot overcome your evil”; that you require a character in your religion to “overcome your evil” for you – to “pay your debt”, as it were.
What if others don’t believe they are inherently evil? What do you do with those people?
I don’t think Librarian has a good grasp of how the atheist mind works. When you need religion in order to cope with being alive, it’s easy to believe that everyone else has an identical need.
I started reading the Turek book, Librarian, and it handles what CharlieK. says about faith and reason in the first chapter… Turek and Geisler point out Faith is reasonable…and it takes more blind “faith” to be an atheist.
Mithras, prior to Christianity is different than the melange followed later in Rome, etc. post-Christ’s Ministry. Don’t have the link where this is suggested and explained…but I got it through Google at the time. Either way, the Christ-debunked-by-Mithras-Cult-folks are grasping at straws.
daniels, I pray for them, of course. Those who beileve man is inherently good have probably never really thought about what we teach our children.
Do we teach children to lie? No. They know all by themselves how to lie. The may not know that it is wrong, but they know how to do it. We need to teach them to tell the truth. Ask any 4 year old covered in chocolate if he’s been eating chocolate, especially after you told him not to. He’ll look you square in the eye and say “No.”
Children are born selfish. Take a toy away from any 2 year old and watch hims scream “MINE!”
If man were inherently evil, why would we tell people to so what is right, even though it’s hard. If being good and doing right were in our nature, it wouldn’t BE hard. If it were in our nature to be good, going through life without guilt should be a piece of cake. Yet we find ourselves thinking evil thoughts when stuck in traffic jams, losing our cool when our kids say “Mommy, mommy, mommy” for the 5 millionth time in 30 seconds, thinking lustful thoughts about those we aren’t married to, and telling our bosses that we did that report last week, but it must have been misfiled when we never even started the project.
I don’t need religion to cope with being alive, Anthony. I was very much physically alive before I was a Christian. So was my husband. But we realized that something very big was missing. Every thing we did was fun. But all of our sins, fun though they were, left us with an empty feeling. We could have fun. But we lacked joy. And joy is NOT happiness. Once you’ve found true joy, you know the difference. Joy goes so much deeper. We may have been successful, but we lacked peace. When the world falls apart, if you don’t have peace, you lose track of meaning.
Fennec, God didn’t create man who is inherently evil. God created a man who knew no sin, but God also gave that man free-will, because God is not a tyrant. He gives us privilege, and responsibility, much like your parents did when you became a teenager, and later, an adult. They give you the opportunity to do well, and let you take the consequences if you fail. But God also loved us so much, that He didn’t let us pay the Ultimate Consequence. We still suffer consequences for things we do through cause and effect, but for Christians, the fear of Hell is removed. That doesn’t mean we get to live like Hell on earth. Because we are given the privilege of salvation, we’re given the responsibility to obey His commands.
Corosive, I’m a sinner too. Just like you, just like my parents, just like my children will be after me. I don’t exclude myself. You’re right though. Many Christians feel a “holier than thou” attitude because they’re saved. This is something Jesus warned against. And as I said before, the church has a LOT of responsibility for it’s own destruction. Don’t let the uppity Christians who think they’re better than you ruin your view of Christ. You aren’t called to be like a Christian. You’re called to be like Christ. Find a good, honest Bible-believing friend. One who’s demonstrated what Christ does. Find a good Bible believing church. (And these days, they’re hard to find. I’ve been burned by many churches before I found the one I’m in now. It was a church that destroyed my brother’s faith. I’m still trying to love him back to Christ.)
I’m not saying any of this because I’m better than you are. Or because I want you to join “our side”. There is no “our side”. There’s just the opportunity for everlasting love, and a life of peace and joy. As I’ve said, all the reasoning in the world won’t convince you of anything. I’m just trying to get you to ask yourselves some deep probing questions about what you believe. Don’t follow TV preachers or self-absorbed Christians. Find someone who intimately knows Jesus and lives their belief well. The best witness is not someone who preaches well. The best witness is a life well lived for Christ.
He truly loves you. And He’s seeking you out. You only need to respond to his call. That’s all I’m trying to say. After all, what do you have to lose?
Thank you , Corosive. Rational conversation beats hacking away at someone else’s faith in my book any day. The psychos out there who call themselves Christians and then tear down others are giving the rest of us a bad name. Those who truly seek Christ understand where they are coming from, but lovingly try to lead them in the right direction by forcing them to ask themselves serious questions. Much like Jesus did to the Pharisees of his day. And as Ravi Zacharias points out “There’s no use cutting off someone’s nose and then giving them a rose t smell.” It means there’s no point in showing the joy of faith in Christ if you’ve destroyed their reason for trusting him by blowing them away with abusive language. I try to keep that phrase my motto. I have a tendency to be a bit harsh at times, something God is helping me to avoid through prayer and constant, CONSTANT practice. I’ll never be perfect, but with God’s help, I will be a good witness. I can’t do it alone. I need Him.
I treasure the compliment. I wish there were a way to private message on here. I’d love to get to know you more. I find you fascinating, even if we don’t agree. I only hope you find His love someday.
Librarian: “I don’t need religion to cope with being alive, Anthony.”
Yeah, actually, you do, Librarian, and if you were honest you’d admit it. That’s how your brain is wired.
That’s why you can’t accept the fact that your existence is limited, and instead try to convince both us and you that “There’s just the opportunity for everlasting love, and a life of peace and joy.”
In fact, when you die, your body encounters entropy. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can’t handle that simple concept of physics, so you embrace the christian mythology.
Well, Anthony, all I have is this. One of is is right, and the other is wrong. Assuming you’re right, I went through life loving a God who never really existed, but because I loved that God I helped my fellow man. You were a good person with or without God, and helped your fellow man the same. And when we both die, it won’t matter what we believed, because, well, we’ll both be dead and it won’t matter. And so, it makes no difference what we did on this earth, because after death comes the great Nothing. And I’m ok with that possibility.
Or
I’m right, and you’re wrong, and when we die, there is a God who judges how we responded to His love, and one of us goes to Heaven, and the Other goes to hell.
Now
It seems by me being right OR wrong based on your logic, I have nothing to lose if I’m wrong (with the possibility of everything to gain if I’m right).
But you have nothing to lose if you’re right and EVERYTHING to lose if you’re wrong.
I’d say my odds are a little better than yours. Do you really want to take that chance?
He loves you, Anthony. Don’t risk your eternal position because you view religion as a crutch. It’s, if you’ll pardon the pun, a lame excuse. Even if I’m wrong, and there is no God, have you lost Anything by believing in Him in this life? Especially if there’s nothing after?
You don’t understand brains other than your own, Librarian. The way my brain is wired, I cannot choose to believe something that has no evidence and is highly unlikely. I can merely realize whether it’s believable or not. And your religion is not in the slightest bit believable.
And you’re wrong about there being only two choices. There are thousands of mutually-exclusive religions and variations of same. Statistically, the chance that you’ve chosen the “correct” one is tiny indeed. Your odds are awful.
You choose to waste your only life muddled in an ancient mythology. I don’t have to make that choice.
Maybe so. But I will still pray for you. And it’ll all come out in the end.
And don’t be so hard on “Exclusivism.” Is the mathemetician cruel because there is only one solution to a problem? No. People often complain that God makes “exclusive religion” the only way out. They should be glad He gave a way out at all.
And it isn’t mythology. It’s historically proven fact, whether you choose to believe it or not. Truth is truth, regardless of what you, me, or anyone says.
Oldie is a Methodist, not a Baptist, BTW,Satpera. There is a lot of difference, I think. Lots of comments here from those that think very differently on some issues and very alike on other issues. The point, I think, is finding common ground on points that affect you and that you may need to compromise on. Otherwise, it doesn’t matter if it has no practical application.
Anthony and Librarian, Anthony’s last position is covered in the first chapter of I do not have enough faith to be an atheist. But (also covered in that same chapter ), I think Anthony is one of those that do not WANT to believe. Of which I used to be one. When I used to read the Bible I would get convicted, hope it wasn’t true, and then tell myself I’ll wait for more proof. Time runs out.
lcbiiimd about 15 years ago
An excellent question. Having Obama speak at commencement is very appropriate and an honor for Notre Dame to have the POTUS give the speech, but Obama did nothing to earn that honorary degree, and honorary degrees in general kind of cheapen the real degrees that students actually earn. The whole practice ought to be done away with if a university administration really wanted to maintain the intrinsic value of that degree.
That’s where ND went wrong. ASU got it right.
Dtroutma about 15 years ago
ND is private and can make their own choices. U.CAL Merced is a PUBLIC school and made theirs. What I found encouraging is that both Obamas spoke intelligently, with understanding to their audience to promote education, and conciliation.
A history of honorary degrees granted might embarrass most universities.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 15 years ago
Let me get this straight; I am pro choice. I believe if a woman is pregnant, in most cases the right thing to do is to keep the baby. I just don’t think she should be coerced into doing it.
Anti-abortion laws don’t make sense because they just can’t be enforced. The cops and the State can’t follow every single pregnant woman everywhere all the time. They can’t even know which one is pregnant and which one isn’t.
When He made women, God entrusted them with the responsability to bear life in its first nine months (and men have always been envious, scared and jealous of that). He therefore gave them the ability (capacity and right are not the same thing) to terminate it. If the State denies them the right to terminate a pregnancy, it won’t take their ability to do so.
Cloning and stem cell search, though, is a whole new ball game.
riley05 about 15 years ago
I’m with Icbiii. Never understood the concept of an honorary degree anyway.
Does the diploma have an asterisk on it, pointing out that it’s only an honorary degree?
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 15 years ago
off the record, I always though that these days, honorary degrees are more publicity stunts by universities more than anything else.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
The concept of an honorary degree is hard to understand nowadays because the institutions handing them out do not deserve the privelege, as they are far from worthy institutions of higher learning. Without Christ all human achievement is a hollow victory.
MaryWorth Premium Member about 15 years ago
Christ who?
deadheadzan about 15 years ago
nfpup-tell that to Ghandi, the Bhudda, and the spirits of earth, air, fire and water.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
Ghandi and Buddha are dead. And the Earth, Air, Fire, and Water do not have spirits and are unable to communicate (they dont have mouths), even if they had conscience. Nice work deadhead; but the Truth can be ignored, maligned, or confused intentionally; but you can’t change it.
Dtroutma about 15 years ago
Pup: volcanoes, tornadoes and hurricanes, floods, and the routine brush and forest fires that wipe out human communities seem to speak pretty clearly to the intellect of the human species. Many of those same folks have “faith”, and been convinced that a guy waiting at a bus will catch a ride in their lifetime—it’s been 2,000 years- and he hasn’t gotten a transfer. Other forces in the universe go well beyond human comprehension to explain. We can marvel at them and wonder indeed how it truly began, if we are not constrained by dogma of our own self-gratifying creation. When humans acquire a greater spirituality to recognize and reject hatred, fear, and cowardice, and take some responsibility for their role in the universe, without the crutch of “organized devotion and submission”- maybe we’ll progress.
MaryWorth Premium Member about 15 years ago
IrishEddieOHara states “Christ Jesus, Dale. The One Whom you shall meet at the end of your days and Who is the Judge of all”
WOW! And all this time the Bible said that was God’s job…
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
Thanks for bringing up the Cosmos, Dtroutma. Here’s what the Creator of said Cosmos spoke through His Prophet Isaiah: “A voice says, ‘Cry out.’ And I said, ‘What shall I cry?’ ‘All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. The grass withers and the flowers fall, Because the breath of the Lord blows on them. Surely the people are grass. The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.’” (emphasis added by me) Isaiah 40:6-8 NIV. And Peter re-iterated the aforementioned scripture in 1Peter1:24, emphasizing the need for a person to be redeemed by the Blood of this one and only real Christ (for Dale)(1Peter1:19) and to be born again by the word of God “for you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For…”All men are like grass, etc.(insert above reference)”.1Peter1:19-25 NIV.
riley05 about 15 years ago
Puppy, you and I have almost identical religious views.
We both recognize that 99.999% of the gods described by man are merely mythology.
If you’d just take that tiny leap, then we’d be in total agreement.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
Anthony you assume the worst of even pagans…look into the sayings of Epictetus for the sayings of a devout pagan. And consider the etymology of “Jupiter”. Jupiter means “High Father”. “Baal” means “lord” - so words and names are not necessarily important. After some study of the past I have found that men of all times were first intelligent, they were also skeptical; and even if they believed they were subject to become unbelievers quite easily (or even suffer for believing). The point I’m making is we are standing at the “end” of a line of much testimony by men and women who must have had very good reasons, through a multitude of experiences and backgrounds - to become believers in the sayings of one “heretical” Jewish Rabbi. In conclusion, I am saying that all the testimony you need to find the Saviour of your soul is contained in an honest appraisal of yourself and your fellow man; and the Study of the Scriptures and the Gospels of Jesus, (which BTW, in the Hebrew means YHWH, or “Jah” saves.) God bless you!
Michael Peterson Premium Member about 15 years ago
Well, the spirits of the drinking fountain notwithstanding, let’s note that Notre Dame has a long tradition of bringing in people with controversial voices to hear what they have to say and to let them hear what those there are saying. Mario Cuomo made a famous speech about the Catholic issues surrounding abortion there. George WMD Bush was welcome. This media uproar boiled down to a bunch of outside agitators creating problems, less than 2 percent of the senior body boycotting and many others quietly and respectfully expressing their views while the president respectfully expressed his. This is a ridiculous, made-up controversy that had nothing to do with Notre Dame and everything to do with nutjob taliban christians who are in no way connected with the university or, in many cases, the Catholic church.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
NoFearPup, I stand behind you all the way.
Something to remember when talking about Christ among other gods:
All the other religions in the world tell you how to save yourself. Finding a higher state of consciousness, praying to Allah, meditating on Buddha. They all tell you how to save yourself.
Christianity is the only one that says you can’t.
If you’re into apologetics, might I suggest Ravi Zacharias? The man is brilliant, but gentle, even with the most rock-solid atheists, new agers, and agnostics.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
Thank you, LibrarianInTraining. I listen to Ravi Zacharias regularly! If I had more money I’d buy all of his cds. And its funny you mention Christ Among Other Gods (I haven’t read that one), I’m currently reading Jesus Among other Gods by Erwin Lutzer; which is sort of a companion to RZ’s book. Mr. Zacharias really cuts through the cacophony and noise of our modern culture to turn the focus back on God.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
TJDestry I sincerely agree with you. The more debate the better. The more communication the better. But I notice the conversation is a bit slanted in one direction, whether its public-funded abortions, embryonic stem cell research, religion in schools, etc. - what are people worried about? Somebody would be accountable to someone with completely opposite views? Seems a little parochial and manipulative.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
NoFear, on RZIM.org, the messages are availible for download free of charge. (If you don’t mind it being broken into parts!)
Lutzer is an incredible author and speaker. I still tend to favor Alistair Begg and Mark Driscoll.
May I also recommend “I Don’t Have Enough Faito to Be an Atheist” by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler?
riley05 about 15 years ago
Librarian: “Christianity is the only one that says you can’t.”
This statement merely shows that you haven’t read enough about religions.
Start here:
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/godquiz.htm
riley05 about 15 years ago
Puppy, when you figure out why you don’t believe in the thousands of gods described by man, then you might be able to figure out why I don’t believe in yours.
charliekane about 15 years ago
Because, Regent (or Dean, Professor, etc.) he is the POTUS!
lalas about 15 years ago
Yeah Dale you should get right on reenacting the rituals written 2,500 years ago by dirt-farmers which were then distorted by monarchs, Popes and other charlatans since that day.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Anthony, Persians lived near the Israelites for many years and had heard much of their Scriptures, so it is indeed possible that the Perisans collaborated the prophecies meant for the Hebrew Messiah into a myth of their own. (Israel certainly seemed to hold the beliefs of various pagan cultures in conjunction with their own scriptures. Hence the reason God condemned them to judgment under the Persian Empire later on. So it’s likely that Persians took the scriptures of the Isrealites and mixed them in with their pagan gods. A religion a la carte, if you will.)
History hold no record of an actual historical Mithra. History emphtically enforces from both secular and religious history that there was in fact, a Jesus Christ, who not only met all of the “qualifications” listed on that page, but also many, many more prophecies.
I suggest reading “The Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. He started out as an atheist researching to prove Jesus was a hoax. If you truly are “open-minded” I think you’ll find it fascinating.
danielsangeo about 15 years ago
“I suggest reading “The Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell. He started out as an atheist researching to prove Jesus was a hoax. If you truly are “open-minded” I think you’ll find it fascinating.”
McDowell (who was no atheist) posits in that book that it is not supernaturalism that requires evidence, but that skepticism requires evidence. He does a headstand and tries to make others prove that “the sky is up”.
He further posits that lack of evidence is, therefore, evidence.
For example, McDowell suggests that resurrection has no possible scientific or natural explanation. Therefore, the resurrection of Jesus is supernatural and therefore, proven.
On Page 13, Mr. McDowell suggests, “For example-the resurrection of Jesus: A critical historian would want to check out the witnesses: confirm the death by crucifixion; go over the burial procedures; confirm the reports of Jesus being alive on the third day and the tomb being empty. Then it would be sensible to consider every possible explanation of the above data. At this state one would want to peruse other corroborative evidence and then draw an appropriate conclusion.” Fair enough. However, he then throws that out when he uses the New Testament to prove that the New Testament is true.
You need to do better than Mr. McDowell.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Daniel There is a revised version of the book called “The New Evidence” where McDowell does correct some of his logical flaws.
And I still go back to my favorite “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist” by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler.
Don’t be fooled by the poor examples of the “organized” church. The church at large has a huge responsibility for causing most of it’s own destruction. Rely on where the evidence leads. There’s simply more evidence for the loving God of the Bible than there is for anything else. Take it from one who’s studied nearly all there is out there. (And my grandmother did too, while running from God.)
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
The “laws” of textual criticism suggest there is no other event more attested to than the life and death of Christ. These are the same laws that substantiate your conclusions on other facts of history which are much less attested to…Plato, Egyptian Dynasties, Alexander the Great, etc. Hence, legally Jesus’ death did occur. Next you have to decide that the Apostles decided to endure persecution and martyrdom for an event they knew was a hoax. If you find that improbable, then you must decide if Jesus was who He said he was. I believe Josh McDowell’s thesis boils down to whether or not Jesus was a “Liar, a lunatic, or the Christ”. Now, if you decide that it is impossible to know, you have to throw out all of Classical History as being unprovable and you probably should remain silent when you would speak against Christ or about any other Classical Historical event, because you have no way of knowing for sure what is the reality and it would, therefore, be a non-issue to you. (I apologize if I made anyone mad… the tone is hard to fix on the internet) Thanks, Librarian, I do have the Turek book and The McDowell Evidence book too…I’m a procrastinator though…Another good book is How We Got the Bible by Lightfoot. For others interested…Zondervan’s NIV Study Bible is a veritable library of cultural, archaeological, linguistic, historical, and etc., information itself.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
And anyway, it doesn’t matter to me. All the arguments in the world won’t convince anyone of anything. They only open doors for questions.
What I can do is pray for you. And that I shall. Every day. It has nothing to do with political this, or conservative that. Jesus instructed all of us to love our neighbors. And because I love you, I want you to find the joy I’ve found. And so I pray that He’ll reach out an touch your life in unforgettable ways. And that when He does, you’ll see He was trying to reach out to you all along! :)
God bless! <3
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
NoFearPup, the Liar, Lunatic Lord scenario was originally coined by C.S. Lewis and is called the “Lewis Triumvirate.” I believe it was in his book “mere Christianity”. Lewis is my favorite apologist. He called himself London’s most reluctant convert and that God dragged him through the gates of Heaven kicking and screaming, because the last thing he wanted to admit was that Jesus was Lord. Lewis was a pantheist.
His book Surprised by Joy tells of how he thought Christianity was coming to an idea, when in reality, he was coming to a Person.
You shouldn’t procrastinate! The Bible calls us to be ready with an answer when asked about the gospel. Spend time in the Word. Find some time in your day (even 15 minutes will do) to read up on what God is saying to you. We’re called to encourage each other. So get hopping! :)
danielsangeo about 15 years ago
Librarian: I’m sorry, but I have never seen any testable evidence for any deity.
That’s not the point of religion, though. It’s not whether a specific deity actually exists, whether the events listed in holy scriptures actually took place, or anything as vulgar as all that. In fact, the search for Jesus, God, the Ark, and so forth actually distract from the reason for religion.
All religions teach a basic message. This message is the basic message of all humanity: That we are all in this together and to do for and to others what you’d want them to do for and to you.
This basic message is more powerful than any person, any place, any event, or any deity. This message exists in every story written since the dawn of man. Whether it’s the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or the Bible, that message shines through brighter than what might have happened to Han Solo in the Mos Eisley Cantina.
And it’s a message that is frequently lost when discussing religion.
riley05 about 15 years ago
Librarian, you might enjoy reading some of this man’s books:
http://tinyurl.com/pngof9
Also, Mithracism preceded Christianity, so I don’t think they could have borrowed from it. Much more likely it was the other way around, just like the Christians borrowed from the English druids later on (getting the Christmas tree, etc.).
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
OldLego I had you pegged as a Baptist. Thanks for the encouragement Librarian, excellent posts! You said that very well (Esp. your second post up). I myself belong to the Nazarene Church which is a splinter off of the Methodist line…
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Anthony, I didn’t say they borrowed it from Christianity. I said they borrowed it from the Jews.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Daneil, I’m truly sorry you feel that way. All religions do not teach the same message. you assume by this “we’re all in this together and we just need to love each other” idea that man is basically good at heart. But we are not. Man is inherently evil, and has been since Adam and Eve. Most religions (particularly Eastern ones) assume you can overcome your evil by achieving a higher god-consciousness or by working it off through Karma. Judaism suggests you can overcome your evil by following the Law and making atoning sacrifice when you do break the law.
Christianity says you can’t overcome your evil. Mother Theresa is deserving of Hell under the observation that, good as she was, she was still a sinner and inherently evil. But if your sin was put on someone who wasn’t inherently evil and who never sinned, then the evil you were born with would no longer be accounted to you. Kinda like owing the national debt (Several trillion dollars) and facing going to prison if you don’t pay. There’s no way you could ever work it off in your lifetime no matter how good you were at making money. But if someone who owned all the money in the world were to tell you, “Nevermind. I already paid it for you. You don’t owe a cent.”
Well, that’s what the love of Jesus is all about.
So, no. All religions are not created equal.
I hope one day you learn that personally. <3
charliekane about 15 years ago
Ladies and gentlemen: Wonderful back and forth.
I don’t believe that Christian truth is “provable”. In “Miracle on 34th Street”, old Kris is “proven” to be Santa Claus, because the post office dumps bags of letters to Santa on the courtroom floor at his feet. Just a lawyer’s trick to keep a deluded old man from being sent to the funny farm.
The efforts to “prove” the “facts” of Christianity leave me similarly unimpressed (good intentioned though they may be).
But that’s the point, isn’t it? It’s faith, not proof that leads one to Christ.
Many years ago, I read Kazantzakis’ “Last Temptation of Christ” in a literature class in college. Many don’t lke this book because of the movie, or if they have read it, because of the “unorthodox” way Jesus is often portrayed. But the author’s ultimate point was that Christ completed his task, and died, when he accepted by faith that it was his purpose to die, despite the more comfortable and reasonable resolution of his fate offered by Satan’s “last temptation”.
Whatever faith is, its not facts, and its not reason. The best you can do is leave your mind open to it.
Bias disclosure: I am a lifelong Chrisian, of the Lutheran variety (sola fide).
riley05 about 15 years ago
Librarian, the point is that the Mithra mythology predates the Christian mythology.
danielsangeo about 15 years ago
“Man is inherently evil”
That is one of the things that your personal religion tells you that, in my opinion, is the cause of all the wars of religion throughout history. This notion that “Only through my personal religion and/or its characters can you ever hope to not suffer for eternity” is, indeed, one of the great evils upon this world.
I am very sorry that you think that man is inherently evil and why, I think, your brand of Christianity stands alone here. You say that Christianity is the only religion where you “cannot overcome your evil”; that you require a character in your religion to “overcome your evil” for you – to “pay your debt”, as it were.
What if others don’t believe they are inherently evil? What do you do with those people?
riley05 about 15 years ago
I don’t think Librarian has a good grasp of how the atheist mind works. When you need religion in order to cope with being alive, it’s easy to believe that everyone else has an identical need.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
I started reading the Turek book, Librarian, and it handles what CharlieK. says about faith and reason in the first chapter… Turek and Geisler point out Faith is reasonable…and it takes more blind “faith” to be an atheist.
Mithras, prior to Christianity is different than the melange followed later in Rome, etc. post-Christ’s Ministry. Don’t have the link where this is suggested and explained…but I got it through Google at the time. Either way, the Christ-debunked-by-Mithras-Cult-folks are grasping at straws.
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 15 years ago
Most people who think man is inherently evil think it applies to everybody but themselves.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
daniels, I pray for them, of course. Those who beileve man is inherently good have probably never really thought about what we teach our children.
Do we teach children to lie? No. They know all by themselves how to lie. The may not know that it is wrong, but they know how to do it. We need to teach them to tell the truth. Ask any 4 year old covered in chocolate if he’s been eating chocolate, especially after you told him not to. He’ll look you square in the eye and say “No.”
Children are born selfish. Take a toy away from any 2 year old and watch hims scream “MINE!”
If man were inherently evil, why would we tell people to so what is right, even though it’s hard. If being good and doing right were in our nature, it wouldn’t BE hard. If it were in our nature to be good, going through life without guilt should be a piece of cake. Yet we find ourselves thinking evil thoughts when stuck in traffic jams, losing our cool when our kids say “Mommy, mommy, mommy” for the 5 millionth time in 30 seconds, thinking lustful thoughts about those we aren’t married to, and telling our bosses that we did that report last week, but it must have been misfiled when we never even started the project.
I don’t need religion to cope with being alive, Anthony. I was very much physically alive before I was a Christian. So was my husband. But we realized that something very big was missing. Every thing we did was fun. But all of our sins, fun though they were, left us with an empty feeling. We could have fun. But we lacked joy. And joy is NOT happiness. Once you’ve found true joy, you know the difference. Joy goes so much deeper. We may have been successful, but we lacked peace. When the world falls apart, if you don’t have peace, you lose track of meaning.
Fennec, God didn’t create man who is inherently evil. God created a man who knew no sin, but God also gave that man free-will, because God is not a tyrant. He gives us privilege, and responsibility, much like your parents did when you became a teenager, and later, an adult. They give you the opportunity to do well, and let you take the consequences if you fail. But God also loved us so much, that He didn’t let us pay the Ultimate Consequence. We still suffer consequences for things we do through cause and effect, but for Christians, the fear of Hell is removed. That doesn’t mean we get to live like Hell on earth. Because we are given the privilege of salvation, we’re given the responsibility to obey His commands.
Corosive, I’m a sinner too. Just like you, just like my parents, just like my children will be after me. I don’t exclude myself. You’re right though. Many Christians feel a “holier than thou” attitude because they’re saved. This is something Jesus warned against. And as I said before, the church has a LOT of responsibility for it’s own destruction. Don’t let the uppity Christians who think they’re better than you ruin your view of Christ. You aren’t called to be like a Christian. You’re called to be like Christ. Find a good, honest Bible-believing friend. One who’s demonstrated what Christ does. Find a good Bible believing church. (And these days, they’re hard to find. I’ve been burned by many churches before I found the one I’m in now. It was a church that destroyed my brother’s faith. I’m still trying to love him back to Christ.)
I’m not saying any of this because I’m better than you are. Or because I want you to join “our side”. There is no “our side”. There’s just the opportunity for everlasting love, and a life of peace and joy. As I’ve said, all the reasoning in the world won’t convince you of anything. I’m just trying to get you to ask yourselves some deep probing questions about what you believe. Don’t follow TV preachers or self-absorbed Christians. Find someone who intimately knows Jesus and lives their belief well. The best witness is not someone who preaches well. The best witness is a life well lived for Christ.
He truly loves you. And He’s seeking you out. You only need to respond to his call. That’s all I’m trying to say. After all, what do you have to lose?
God Bless <3
CorosiveFrog Premium Member about 15 years ago
^ a rationnal christian! It’s easy to forget, but there are tons of them.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Thank you , Corosive. Rational conversation beats hacking away at someone else’s faith in my book any day. The psychos out there who call themselves Christians and then tear down others are giving the rest of us a bad name. Those who truly seek Christ understand where they are coming from, but lovingly try to lead them in the right direction by forcing them to ask themselves serious questions. Much like Jesus did to the Pharisees of his day. And as Ravi Zacharias points out “There’s no use cutting off someone’s nose and then giving them a rose t smell.” It means there’s no point in showing the joy of faith in Christ if you’ve destroyed their reason for trusting him by blowing them away with abusive language. I try to keep that phrase my motto. I have a tendency to be a bit harsh at times, something God is helping me to avoid through prayer and constant, CONSTANT practice. I’ll never be perfect, but with God’s help, I will be a good witness. I can’t do it alone. I need Him.
I treasure the compliment. I wish there were a way to private message on here. I’d love to get to know you more. I find you fascinating, even if we don’t agree. I only hope you find His love someday.
I’ll be praying for you! <3
riley05 about 15 years ago
Librarian: “I don’t need religion to cope with being alive, Anthony.”
Yeah, actually, you do, Librarian, and if you were honest you’d admit it. That’s how your brain is wired.
That’s why you can’t accept the fact that your existence is limited, and instead try to convince both us and you that “There’s just the opportunity for everlasting love, and a life of peace and joy.”
In fact, when you die, your body encounters entropy. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can’t handle that simple concept of physics, so you embrace the christian mythology.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Well, Anthony, all I have is this. One of is is right, and the other is wrong. Assuming you’re right, I went through life loving a God who never really existed, but because I loved that God I helped my fellow man. You were a good person with or without God, and helped your fellow man the same. And when we both die, it won’t matter what we believed, because, well, we’ll both be dead and it won’t matter. And so, it makes no difference what we did on this earth, because after death comes the great Nothing. And I’m ok with that possibility.
Or
I’m right, and you’re wrong, and when we die, there is a God who judges how we responded to His love, and one of us goes to Heaven, and the Other goes to hell.
Now
It seems by me being right OR wrong based on your logic, I have nothing to lose if I’m wrong (with the possibility of everything to gain if I’m right).
But you have nothing to lose if you’re right and EVERYTHING to lose if you’re wrong.
I’d say my odds are a little better than yours. Do you really want to take that chance?
He loves you, Anthony. Don’t risk your eternal position because you view religion as a crutch. It’s, if you’ll pardon the pun, a lame excuse. Even if I’m wrong, and there is no God, have you lost Anything by believing in Him in this life? Especially if there’s nothing after?
riley05 about 15 years ago
You don’t understand brains other than your own, Librarian. The way my brain is wired, I cannot choose to believe something that has no evidence and is highly unlikely. I can merely realize whether it’s believable or not. And your religion is not in the slightest bit believable.
And you’re wrong about there being only two choices. There are thousands of mutually-exclusive religions and variations of same. Statistically, the chance that you’ve chosen the “correct” one is tiny indeed. Your odds are awful.
You choose to waste your only life muddled in an ancient mythology. I don’t have to make that choice.
LibrarianInTraining about 15 years ago
Maybe so. But I will still pray for you. And it’ll all come out in the end.
And don’t be so hard on “Exclusivism.” Is the mathemetician cruel because there is only one solution to a problem? No. People often complain that God makes “exclusive religion” the only way out. They should be glad He gave a way out at all.
And it isn’t mythology. It’s historically proven fact, whether you choose to believe it or not. Truth is truth, regardless of what you, me, or anyone says.
And I still stand to lose nothing.
In the end, I suppose only time will tell.
Love and prayers to you!
deadheadzan about 15 years ago
Oldie is a Methodist, not a Baptist, BTW,Satpera. There is a lot of difference, I think. Lots of comments here from those that think very differently on some issues and very alike on other issues. The point, I think, is finding common ground on points that affect you and that you may need to compromise on. Otherwise, it doesn’t matter if it has no practical application.
NoFearPup about 15 years ago
Anthony and Librarian, Anthony’s last position is covered in the first chapter of I do not have enough faith to be an atheist. But (also covered in that same chapter ), I think Anthony is one of those that do not WANT to believe. Of which I used to be one. When I used to read the Bible I would get convicted, hope it wasn’t true, and then tell myself I’ll wait for more proof. Time runs out.