And yet, Mr. Doty, John 19:42 remarks that “the tomb was close at hand.” True, the body on the one cross is not likely–nor is her posture, apparently kneeling–but it may well be that she was in sight of the crosses when near the tomb.
Someone claimed and here is something someone can look up. Back in Jesus time before even Jesus was nailed to the cross that men who had beards where pulled out as a torture before dying. Where is this in the bible?
I meant to ask this Monday but couldn’t get on line had two Dr. appointments, gettin ready for minor rt shoulder surgery next week.
I have to side with Mr. Doty on this. People generally don’t pay attention to the text and read what they want into to passage. If not that, then they insert a tradition in place fo the text. Biggest example of that is the “Christmas Story” with wise men showing up in the manger scene. That just never happened if you read the text and realize the age of the males that Herod was looking to kill. Also the location is wrong.
What Mr. Doty is trying to point out is that the English text sometimes is not clear and you need to go back into the Greek text and see what the word means and how it was used.
For a few of us this is the fun part of scripture and I enjoy the discussions on these points.
For Lewreader, I would add one more thing - He ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Kab Buch - I do not know of such a reference in the Bible. The Old Testament alone uses the Hebrew words for “Beard” - it is not used in the New Testament. There are only a few references to anything similar and they are listed below and generally are related as something done to degrade the Hebrew person or was done in grief. Reference and source below:
“To mutilate the beard of another was considered a great indignity (see 2 Samuel 10:4; compare Isaiah 50:6, “plucked off the hair”).”
From - Orr, J., M.A., D.D. 1999. The International standard Bible encyclopedia : 1915 edition (J. Orr, Ed.). Ages Software: Albany, OR
Mr. Doty may have a better idea of what you are thinking of - my thought was more thinking of Jesus trials that is why I referenced the ones above..
I had shoulder surgery for removal of a chunk of bone - keep it immobile so it will heal as they will tell you and make sure you do the rehab for a quicker recovery.
GET A LIFE, PEOPLE!! I understood this Perfectly! Mary saw her Son crucified, and grieved…then HE let he know that what HE had Told her,had come True! HE was “Risen and in Heaven with HIS Heavenly Father” and Mary’s Joy was complete, beCause of this!!
God’s Peace and Blessings for All of you!
bluebutterfly
“GOD SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT, THAT SETTLES IT” !!!
EVERYONE who has Ever read a Bible (of Any “translation”) Knows that for each ONE verse you read, and three other people read the identical verse…there will be MINIMALLY FOUR “versions” or “translations”…
People, why can’t you accept this for what it is?
EASTER GREETINGS! This artist/Minister is “merely” sharing the JOY of Easter Morning with us…why can’t you just accept it at that! WHY “Argue” ?? After all is said and done..the bottom line IS: Jesus was crucified for US, (poor sinners that WE ALL ARE!) and God took Him back to Heaven to be at His Right Hand!! AMEN,,, and THANK God for that!
KDasher King - I don’t think anyone is trying to argue, just explain.
Mr. Doty is only trying to point out, the text was originally in Greek and written without punctuation. For English speaking Protestants our earliest translation is generally accepted as Tyndale’s. Unfortunately that is in olde English. So others have translated the text. As noted chapters and verses were added and many times right in the middle of a complete thought or sentence. The first chapter of Ephesians has two very long sentences which we English speakers have broken up and somewhat made it harder to understand.
AS to coming up with multiple interpretations, I find that unlikely in most passages as I am taking that to mean translations. If you are talking applications, sure there are multiple. When Mr. Doty is talking about the “Marys” he is not interpreting, he is clarifying by comparing scripture with scripture.
I would point out that all have “assumed” that is a “Mary” weeping - Mike Morgan never indicated a name. But here are the two quotes that have names: “And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons” & “Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.”
So to settle this discussion lets all go with Salome ;-)
When I try to read more than a few passages of the Bible I get irritated and find myself wanting to tell the writer to get to the point already. Others study the Bible in depth, and others just read it and interpret it in whatever manner, etc.
The more technical or complicated the teachings become the further I am from believing in the possibility of God’s existence. For whatever reason the part of me that understands things that way is very negative and cynical.
The part of me that is willing to believe in the possibility of God, love, happiness & hope understands things that are as simple as possible.
Is it possible that the reason there are so many interpretations and different belief systems is because we all are different and need different ways to understand our belief systems? If everything has a purpose, maybe it is meant for there to be many beliefs systems. Consider that most belief systems have very similar teachings on how to behave and teach others.
LuvH8, I think the differences are based on our presuppositional starting points. Big fancy word there meaning, before I read the text, I have formed a belief system for how I will read (into) the text (preconceived ideas). This is what Mr. Doty was saying about setting all that aside and reading the text plainly.
We may all disagree from time to time on points, but that is because in our minds we start with certain things we each consider a fact. Most of us just continue to build on those “facts”. Also it is really hard for people to abandon a position and you have seen that in the discussions we have had over the months. but those discussions we have are called “in house”, in that none of us is calling the other a heretic which would put a person outside the faith.
I get a kick out of Mr. Doty’s comment on “Easter greetings” as when I was greeted with that several times this past week or so, I responded with “Happy Resurrection Week to you” and I did that to politely move them away from bunnies and eggs to why the week is celebrated.
I think what Mr. Doty suggested is a good way to get a “feel” for what is being discussed. in the text. I have no idea what translation you are using, but I would suggest you use a couple to get a “flavor” for what is in the text or different shades of meaning in the English. Some Bibles are more word for word and hard to read (New American Standard) and others are thought for thought (New International Version). Then do as he suggested, write down what you think is being said about the passage. Don’t confuse application (the different ways the verse can be applied) with what the verse is actually saying to do.
I don’t think anyone here would have an issue discussing a particular verse for you.
Actually Phil N DeBlanc I have four different Bibles, and compare them to try to better understand what is meant and account for different translations. (they were hanging around my Gma’s).
I do appreciate any advice on understanding the teachings of the Bible, and have found the people here are nice about answering my questions, even when my opinions don’t match theirs.
If God meant for us all to agree, then wouldn’t we all have the exact same belief systems and ways of following them?
I think for me (at least currently), it is the general concepts that are important and not the details. I do see the benefit to reading some passages of the Bible, but to read the whole thing in whatever order would make the part of me willing to believe in God shut down and go into hiding. Which is why appreciate it when people are specific about the verses they are refering to so that if I elect to try to see what they are saying in a Bible, I can find it relatively easily.
freeholder1 over 14 years ago
The Neverending story. Really.
bmonk over 14 years ago
Yes: one biography that certainly doesn’t end with death…
runar over 14 years ago
No Easter next year - they found the body.
bmonk over 14 years ago
And yet, Mr. Doty, John 19:42 remarks that “the tomb was close at hand.” True, the body on the one cross is not likely–nor is her posture, apparently kneeling–but it may well be that she was in sight of the crosses when near the tomb.
lewisbower over 14 years ago
JOE He lived. He died He rose. The greatest thing that ever happened and you are going to argue translations. Step out of the boat Thomas.
donniestuart Premium Member over 14 years ago
Amen, Lewreader!
kab2rb over 14 years ago
Someone claimed and here is something someone can look up. Back in Jesus time before even Jesus was nailed to the cross that men who had beards where pulled out as a torture before dying. Where is this in the bible? I meant to ask this Monday but couldn’t get on line had two Dr. appointments, gettin ready for minor rt shoulder surgery next week.
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
I have to side with Mr. Doty on this. People generally don’t pay attention to the text and read what they want into to passage. If not that, then they insert a tradition in place fo the text. Biggest example of that is the “Christmas Story” with wise men showing up in the manger scene. That just never happened if you read the text and realize the age of the males that Herod was looking to kill. Also the location is wrong.
What Mr. Doty is trying to point out is that the English text sometimes is not clear and you need to go back into the Greek text and see what the word means and how it was used.
For a few of us this is the fun part of scripture and I enjoy the discussions on these points.
For Lewreader, I would add one more thing - He ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father.
We may get the Apostle’s Creed in here yet ;-)
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
Kab Buch - I do not know of such a reference in the Bible. The Old Testament alone uses the Hebrew words for “Beard” - it is not used in the New Testament. There are only a few references to anything similar and they are listed below and generally are related as something done to degrade the Hebrew person or was done in grief. Reference and source below:
“To mutilate the beard of another was considered a great indignity (see 2 Samuel 10:4; compare Isaiah 50:6, “plucked off the hair”).” From - Orr, J., M.A., D.D. 1999. The International standard Bible encyclopedia : 1915 edition (J. Orr, Ed.). Ages Software: Albany, OR
Mr. Doty may have a better idea of what you are thinking of - my thought was more thinking of Jesus trials that is why I referenced the ones above..
I had shoulder surgery for removal of a chunk of bone - keep it immobile so it will heal as they will tell you and make sure you do the rehab for a quicker recovery.
ecbluebutterfly2 over 14 years ago
GET A LIFE, PEOPLE!! I understood this Perfectly! Mary saw her Son crucified, and grieved…then HE let he know that what HE had Told her,had come True! HE was “Risen and in Heaven with HIS Heavenly Father” and Mary’s Joy was complete, beCause of this!! God’s Peace and Blessings for All of you! bluebutterfly
ecbluebutterfly2 over 14 years ago
“GOD SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT, THAT SETTLES IT” !!! EVERYONE who has Ever read a Bible (of Any “translation”) Knows that for each ONE verse you read, and three other people read the identical verse…there will be MINIMALLY FOUR “versions” or “translations”… People, why can’t you accept this for what it is? EASTER GREETINGS! This artist/Minister is “merely” sharing the JOY of Easter Morning with us…why can’t you just accept it at that! WHY “Argue” ?? After all is said and done..the bottom line IS: Jesus was crucified for US, (poor sinners that WE ALL ARE!) and God took Him back to Heaven to be at His Right Hand!! AMEN,,, and THANK God for that!
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Hallucinating and hearing voices. Oh, I’m in trouble now.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
KDasherKing
(Blows Raspberry!)You are not playing very nice!
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
KDasher King - I don’t think anyone is trying to argue, just explain.
Mr. Doty is only trying to point out, the text was originally in Greek and written without punctuation. For English speaking Protestants our earliest translation is generally accepted as Tyndale’s. Unfortunately that is in olde English. So others have translated the text. As noted chapters and verses were added and many times right in the middle of a complete thought or sentence. The first chapter of Ephesians has two very long sentences which we English speakers have broken up and somewhat made it harder to understand.
AS to coming up with multiple interpretations, I find that unlikely in most passages as I am taking that to mean translations. If you are talking applications, sure there are multiple. When Mr. Doty is talking about the “Marys” he is not interpreting, he is clarifying by comparing scripture with scripture.
I would point out that all have “assumed” that is a “Mary” weeping - Mike Morgan never indicated a name. But here are the two quotes that have names: “And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons” & “Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.”
So to settle this discussion lets all go with Salome ;-)
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
When I try to read more than a few passages of the Bible I get irritated and find myself wanting to tell the writer to get to the point already. Others study the Bible in depth, and others just read it and interpret it in whatever manner, etc.
The more technical or complicated the teachings become the further I am from believing in the possibility of God’s existence. For whatever reason the part of me that understands things that way is very negative and cynical.
The part of me that is willing to believe in the possibility of God, love, happiness & hope understands things that are as simple as possible.
Is it possible that the reason there are so many interpretations and different belief systems is because we all are different and need different ways to understand our belief systems? If everything has a purpose, maybe it is meant for there to be many beliefs systems. Consider that most belief systems have very similar teachings on how to behave and teach others.
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
LuvH8, I think the differences are based on our presuppositional starting points. Big fancy word there meaning, before I read the text, I have formed a belief system for how I will read (into) the text (preconceived ideas). This is what Mr. Doty was saying about setting all that aside and reading the text plainly.
We may all disagree from time to time on points, but that is because in our minds we start with certain things we each consider a fact. Most of us just continue to build on those “facts”. Also it is really hard for people to abandon a position and you have seen that in the discussions we have had over the months. but those discussions we have are called “in house”, in that none of us is calling the other a heretic which would put a person outside the faith.
I get a kick out of Mr. Doty’s comment on “Easter greetings” as when I was greeted with that several times this past week or so, I responded with “Happy Resurrection Week to you” and I did that to politely move them away from bunnies and eggs to why the week is celebrated.
I think what Mr. Doty suggested is a good way to get a “feel” for what is being discussed. in the text. I have no idea what translation you are using, but I would suggest you use a couple to get a “flavor” for what is in the text or different shades of meaning in the English. Some Bibles are more word for word and hard to read (New American Standard) and others are thought for thought (New International Version). Then do as he suggested, write down what you think is being said about the passage. Don’t confuse application (the different ways the verse can be applied) with what the verse is actually saying to do.
I don’t think anyone here would have an issue discussing a particular verse for you.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Actually Phil N DeBlanc I have four different Bibles, and compare them to try to better understand what is meant and account for different translations. (they were hanging around my Gma’s).
I do appreciate any advice on understanding the teachings of the Bible, and have found the people here are nice about answering my questions, even when my opinions don’t match theirs.
If God meant for us all to agree, then wouldn’t we all have the exact same belief systems and ways of following them?
I think for me (at least currently), it is the general concepts that are important and not the details. I do see the benefit to reading some passages of the Bible, but to read the whole thing in whatever order would make the part of me willing to believe in God shut down and go into hiding. Which is why appreciate it when people are specific about the verses they are refering to so that if I elect to try to see what they are saying in a Bible, I can find it relatively easily.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago