Do you ever feel the presence of God?
If so, when are you most aware of God?
What do you feel God wants from / for you personally?
Are you ever able to sense any of God’s emotions?
LuvH8
Sometimes I feel the presence of God in an almost tangible way. He will bring a thought to my mind about how to deal with a problem I’ve been wrestling about, and just was “at my wit’s end” to know what to do. (That happened several times during my years of homeschooling my sons!)
Whenever I think about Him, I know he is with me.
What does He want?
(Micah 6:8 NIV) He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
As a parent, I think I have gained more understanding of God’s emotions in the process. The wide range of emotions we have are part of how God created us. It is up to us to not let the emotions rule us, but rather that they are like the “spice” to our lives. We wouldn’t want to eat straight salt or any other spice for a meal, but most of us like some on our food, or our meal is too bland. Just like too much of a spice ruins our food, too much of any emotion can ruin our lives. Emotions are usually based on our circumstances, but we need to look “at the big picture.” If we do, we can have hope & joy knowing He is in control, and that this world isn’t all that life has to offer.
I agree, Rmom–the Bible, and the rest of revelation, have been given us so that we may recognize God when God is with us or speaks to us–but we also need that living, personal relationship, or the Bible won’t help us. I’m most aware of God when I pray, usually–but that doesn’t mean God is not with me at other times. Remember the “Footprints” poem…
What does God want from us? A relationship, to be with us, as in John 1:14: The Word became flesh, and pitched his tent among us. or Exodus 3:14, where God reveals his name, which means something like “I am who am”, or perhaps “I will be with you.” The God of love wants us to be people of love too.
As for God’s emotions, I often know God is laughing–and almost as often crying.
Thank you nobody_special ~ you seem special too me. I hope God has a sense of humor (or I am in trouble).
Thank You Rmom ~ I am glad that God has helped you with your sons. (maybe you should let them know that they should thank him for that) It sounds to me that you view God as a wise and loving parent. One who is always there, leads by example and does not let emotions decide what is best for his children. (If I am wrong please correct me, it is sometimes easier for me to understand if I rephrase things.)
Thank you Bunnyface ~ That was a very moving poem, I have read it once long ago. I phrased it the most aware of God because I assumed that He is always there, just sometimes people are more aware than others. I like God of love, that is a nice way to put it. Um, is God crying possibly why I feel guilty when I swear now and automatically apologize.
Why would God be laughing?
@LuvH8, after looking at myself, I know God has a sense of humor.
No, God enjoys being with us as we discover the world, much as we enjoy being with a toddler or infant who is just finding out how much fun peek-a-boo or being on a swing is. And that sort of laughter–and many others–is contagious.
As for the God of Love, in the New Testament, at least eight different traditions–including all the major ones–have one form or another of the Love command:
Love one another (as I have loved you).
Love your enemies.
Love God with your whole heart and soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.
LuvH8 - You are basically correct in one of the ways I see God - however, He’s perfect, and I’m far from a perfect parent. I also see God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (sometimes I’m confused which one of the Trinity - ask bunnyface if you want accuracy) as my closest friend. He’s there when no one else is, and NEVER gets tired of listening to me (unlike my husband, my sons, etc.)
Believe it or not, Oscar Wilde wasn’t too far off:
(Prov 25:21-22 NIV) If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
@Joe, as we put it: Love the sinner, hate the sin. But not always so easy to distinguish in real life. (Another reason we all always need to grow…)
@LuvH8, I would say that there are at least two ways to define enemies: those you hate or resist, and those who hate or attack you. Either one is a good candidate for learning to love. I find the best way to begin is to pray for them, and even to thank God for their gifts for me. Even if I find it hard to see how they are using those gifts for my good.
@Rmom, I would think that Jesus–the human face of God–would be the easiest to have as a friend. I find the Holy Spirit welling up in my heart, and the Father as the transcendent Other who stands behind creation and authority and other such things. But Jesus is the one who came to be with us in all things.
By the way, I must note that the religious discussion here over the past month or more has certainly gotten more civilized on all sides. Thank you, and good work!
Bmonk (Bunnyface) - I have to most trouble with are the ones who hate or attack anyone (yes, sometimes including myself, on both sides). If nothing else I would consider it their gift to be “a horrible warning”, that reminds me to try to not do the same.
Rmom - Sounds like a good friend. Perfect? That sounds a bit intimidating, I think I would prefer almost perfect.
Joe said:
Jesus made hatred the spiritual equivalent of murder committed in one’s heart.
This is one of the reasons why I feel I would end up in the bad place. If someone does many hateful things, or things that are awful. I have trouble not hating the person. Most of the time I eventually work through it (sometimes it takes years). It would probably help if the person would at least attempt to stop doing hateful things.
Joe - I would be interested in your answers to my questions above, even if you only answer one or two.
Joe ~ Does it matter so much if the phrase “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” is in the Bible.
It sounds a lot like “You can unconditionally love someone and yet not like what they do.” Which is what you said.
When I was growing up, hate covered a wide range of negative emotions from mild dislike to detesting. I’m pretty sure the phrase Bmonk (Bunnyface) used is older than me.
I do think it is often more difficult not to hate something than to hate it. Do you really consider hating things, actions or ideas against your religious beliefs?
I hope your ex- brother-in-law has seeked out some method of better controlling himself, and learned to like himself as well. I have found that most people who are abusive (mentally and/or physically) actually hate themselves.
How can you think someone is your enemy if you do not recognize them as such. We have some enemies we know and some we don’t . I would have to say that some people are our enemies without even knowing it themselves.
I am confused by your last post Joe, would you mind simplifying it for me.
I know some would consider that communicating with God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit as something imagined or a sign of mental illness. (Actually it is one of the signs of mental illness for some. Especially if God is telling them to eliminate all sinners with a weed whacker.) I am open to the possibility of communicating with God, but would be wary of taking someone else’s word at face value, if I did not know that person.
Joe, it seems to me that you are determined to take issue with whatever anyone else says.
I did not say that anyone who communicates with God is mentally ill. I said that it can be a sign of mental illness. It can also be someone who is lying for whatever purpose. I also said I was open to the possiblilty of someone communicating with God.
If we believe every person who says they communicate with God or that God is communicating through them, then we are “ignorant”. It is not wise to accept what other people say on blind faith.
There are always people who use “the word of God” from the Bible or their own communications with God to justify doing terrible things, including torturing and killing others. Or use “the word of God” to profit themselves in some way.
So, I don’t think everyone who says they communicate with God is mentally ill. I also don’t take it for granted that they are sane or truthful.
As for Peter and Paul I haven’t read those parts of the Bible. (or much of it at all)
I asked people those questions because I was curious as to what others felt, and because it seems like sometimes people get so caught up in the facts that they forget the feelings.
Maybe it is because I am not aware of all the facts, but I consider the feelings and overall teachings to be just as important as the facts. I know most of the commentors here are well versed in the facts, but their feelings in a lot of cases are unclear to me.
@LuvH8, another saying is that God makes us holy, but not necessarily whole. So, as I understand it, being mentally ill is no barrier to communicating with God.
On the other hand, I cannot speak for what Mr. Doty might say or believe; I am confident that he can, and will, speak for himself.
Another insight I’ve gotten into hate: hate implies some sort of love or concern, at least for something. What we need to do is to unfold it so the love is on the outside of the package. Then we can look at it to see whether it is worthy of us, and decide if it’s a love we really want to keep as is, or whether we need to grow to a deeper love.
bmonk, On the love and hate of God. I try to explain it as two sides of the same coin. God loves all His sheep that He chose and gave to the Son. But as with Isaac and Jacob, He hates the one He did not chose and loves the one that He did chose: Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” See also Rev 2:6 & 15 for Christ’s use of hate.
So one side of the coin has love which is expressed in His mercy/grace to those He chose for salvation and the other side has His hatred and upon whom He will pour out His justice/wrath. So grace/mercy and wrath/justice are also opposites.
We also see information provided to the believer on how they are to behave - this is in support of what Mr. Doty has been saying. 1 John 2:9-11 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Now that last verse seems in conflict with this one: Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
All I am trying to point out is these anthropopathisms are God’s way of communicating His hatred and we have to be careful how we use the words Love and Hate.
Jude 20-23 sort of pulls this all the various posts together: 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
On God making us Holy, I would agree, that is part of the act of justifying us at the point we express faith in Christ. Not only that but that God treats us as positionally sanctified (Holy, Set Apart), though not temporally.
On mental illness, I would say that if sin had never entered the world we would not have mental illness. I see that as a by-product so to speak.
On getting along with folks, I am not as concerned about that as I consider it more important to be faithful the Scripture we have been given than to others. I would reference in support of that Romans 16:17 “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them”. Paul is speaking of the doctrine he taught them. Combined with Eph 4:14-15 ” that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—”. So I am of the opinion that doctrine will divide.
I have enjoyed all the discussions with Mr. Doty, Bunnyface, LuvH8, bmonk, DerekA and others. Yes there will be disagreements, but they should all be to where we increase our knowledge and learn.
@Phil DeBlanc, another explanation I’ve heard on the “hate” of God is that the original language of Jesus (Aramaic) had no word between love and hate, so it was hard to say “like” or “love less”–instead it came out, for example, to love God and hate your family.
Yet another explanation: since people in Jesus’ day took their self-identity from their people and family, much as we identify ourselves by our job, our sports-team affiliation, or our nationality, only more so, to “deny” or “hate” your family meant turning away from your self-definition and allowing God to give you a new identity–hence the “new name” spoken of in Rev. 2:17 (and also 3:12).
Do you ever feel the presence of God?
If so, when are you most aware of God?
What do you feel God wants from / for you personally?
Are you ever able to sense any of God’s emotions?
I am curious as to how you would answer the questions, without referencing the Bible. Just your feelings. You may have already answered but I sort of got lost trying to understand what you wrote.
Phil N. DeBlanc
Would you mind explaining your theory on mental illness?
Having a mental illness (possibly a few), and being around people with mental illnesses and/or developmental disabilities has improved my life in some ways (not that I wouldn’t rather be ‘normal’). I feel I have learned to be:
~ more patient
~ more tolerant of differences
~ willing to take more time to understand what a person means, not just what they are saying, and less likely to jump to conclusions because I hear/read a word or phrase that I dislike
~ more able to understand that it is possible to like (luv) someone and not like everything they do or think
~ to understand that sometimes a person is not totally aware of the possible effects of their actions/words
~ greater sympathy and empathy
I don’t like being bipolar (wishing that you would just conveinently die, and thinking that you are a failure are not fun). I’d hate to think that God made me bipolar as a punishment for my or others sins. It would take away from the positive aspects I have spent so long trying to recognize. Kind of like God saying:
Joe perhaps you could benefit from learning more about mental illnesses. Being mentally ill does not necessarily make a person “crazy”. In spite of you not having “a problem with people taking medicines prescribed by psychiatrists.” You definitely show signs of being prejudice against mental illness, and frequently make offensive comments about mental illness.
Since I have not called you mentally ill (aside from being concerned that you may have problems with depression) I also take offense at your acting like I am accusing you of being crazy.
BTW ~ I have met several people who ‘hear voices’ that also say they communicate with God. The way you phrased your response automatically calls them liars. Why?
LuvH8 - To me it isn’t intimidating at all, to think of God as perfect. I would rather try to imitate someone who IS perfect, than to imitate someone who is flawed. God understands when we aren’t perfect, that is why Jesus has paid the penalty, so that we can be forgiven. Only when we compare ourselves to perfection, can we see that we are in need of a Savior.
One clear guide to know if it is truly God speaking to you, is that whatever is said, will never conflict with what is in the Bible. For example, if someone says that God told them to leave their spouse, and take up with someone else, it wasn’t God who told them to do that.
As far as mental illness being a result of sin entering the world, I agree. So are death and all other illnesses. But in Romans 8:28, in says, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” God can take what was meant for evil, and use it for good. Joseph’s life (Genesis chapters 30-50 is where you can read about him) was an example of that principle.
(Gen 50:20 NIV) “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.”
Just as the sins I have committed in the past make me less judgmental of others, so should any other areas where we have struggled make us more compassionate. Most people who don’t realize they are imperfect, have a problem with pride, but fail to see it in themselves.
Joe ~ If I misinterpreted what you meant then it is probably because you often type things that are hateful and ignorant about mental illness and people who believe differently than you. You may have more knowledge of the facts of religion, but I wonder how much you actually understand. I deal with enough prejudice in Real Life, so I will pray for you (Bunnyface says that’s alright) but I am not going to discuss religion with you any more.
BTW ~ No one has any way of knowing whether your screen name is made up or real. And if you do not want to talk to people with made up screen names:
LuvH8, Actually Joe and I have had some serious discussions in the past and I did look him up. I may disagree with Joe in one area, but over time I have come top respect his comments, and I try now to go out of my way to supplement what he says or clarify. I think Phil try to do the same thing as well. I agree, it is a disadvantage. Joe tends to be a very public person. He sticks to his point - for proof of that see Non-Sequiter today and Wiley’s response. I think Wiley’s response is typical of secular people - they do not want to reconcile the spiritual with scripture and reality. They will joke about God until the judgment. I think all that Joe and most of us want is for folks to think through their theology and see where it takes them - and don’t kid yourself - everyone has a theology including the atheist.
Joe, If I ever get back to Tulsa, I will take you out for dinner - my treat.
Oh and the reason I don’t use my last name is because when I did - all I got were nasty e-mails from folks who tracked me down
Ok - been out of town for w few and will try and look at what has been going on.
Bmonk - on “hate’ in the Old Testament - it is everywhere - about 80 or so verses - see Strongs number 8130 for one usage, See Atam 2251 in BDB, See Harris 2272a also Harris 0078.0 - there are more Aramaic derivitives - but the point is hate was expressed in Aramaic and so neither Jesus nor Paul or any aposle/disciple were unfamiliar with the words or concept and the shades of meaning. My point would be that if the author used the word hate in the Aramaic and it was written in Greek, then we know exactly what was meant.
Clearly God hates sin - he does not just like it less than non sin. When Phil talks about opposite sides of a coin - I take that to mean not having an slight compatibility. As John puts it in the Gospel and his apostles - can light have fellowship with darkness? In first John it is a comparison only between light and darkness - no walking in the shade - it is an either or. I don’t mean to be hard on this but I think God really really hates sin - so much that He turned His back on His Son for 3 hours so Jesus could have the punishment applied to Him for all the Father had chosen.
Joe - Luke 14 and Matt 10 passages - I have no problem with your approach - Jesus was talking commitment - just like to the rich young ruler.
I am not going to try and answer questions posted to Phil - ok one thing on emotions - in the OT many of the emotions are expressed by the use of body parts, heart, kidneys, bowels. I am a person who believes my God is an emotional God - just from the usage of words like love, hate, wrath, joy, happiness, sadness, sorrow - one has to look no further than Jesus to see emotions from Him as a hypostatic being - fully God and fully man.
Since I am on a role - I believe every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus and the Father. So I do believe and do ask for several things when I study scripture - first wisdom from God - not knowledge - and second that I would be enlightened See Ephesians 1:17-18.
hmmm - mental illness - I will take shot at that too. I suspect Phil is a person that believes when sin entered the world it was genetically passed down from generation to generation - I don’t think Joe would agree with that - just a guess though from what I have seen him post in the past.
If genetic - it would mean sin is in everyone at conception (Jesus being the exception since the Father was the Holy Spirit) is created “in sin” The point I would argue is that Adam in his original state had full mental faculties - no sin, but the ability to choose to sin - at the point he decided in his mind to choose to eat the fruit - that would be the first case of mental illness as choosing to eat really was the sin - eating the fruit was just consummating the thought. Think again of Jesus’ comment on hating your brother is the same as murder. Adam’s thought of doing it was the same as doing it.
Mental illness & other illnesses, disabilities & challenges we face in life are the result of sin. God uses these to teach us that we (the person who is affected and others) are not perfect and should try to overcome our imperfections.
After looking up theology in the dictionary, I find that I disagree that everyone has a theology. I do think that everyone has a belief system. In my case, one day I was doing something and realized I really did not know how I would define my spirituality, which is not the same thing as religion. So, I am trying to learn about different belief systems to help me define my spirituality.
I am interested in Christianity, not because I want to convert, but because I want to understand more about it. Most of the experience I have with people who call themselves Christians has been very negative. I’m kind of hoping that Christianity is more about love than hate (in all their forms).
@LuvH8, I’d agree with your in part. We do treat mental illness differently from other illnesses. Do we blame a man who is missing a leg for being incomplete? Do we treat a woman with diabetes as if it were her fault? But we often tend to treat mentally disturbed or ill people as if they were to blame, and that is wrong when it happens.
I also like the saying that “God calls us to holiness more than to wholeness.” Which is that we are called to be holy, and do not necessarily need to be whole to be holy. But we cannot really be whole–not only physically and mentally but spiritually as well–if we are not holy.
Christians are (except those in heaven) still sinners. We are in the Church because we are sinners, and need the Church for its support. We are not there because we are perfect–those who are perfect don’t need the Church, or even God.
Christians, like everybody else, have a remarkable dexterity for missing the point. We know it’s about love, but forget, and get caught up in the minor things, and hate, and the rest. That’s why we need to turn to the Bible, and to the liturgy so often–to remind us what we are about, to bring us again to God’s call to repent and believe, and all the rest of our way.
Bmonk
According to my doctors I have a lot more control over whether I become diabetic (late onset diabetes runs in my family) than whether I have a mental illness. I do understand what you mean though.
Would you mind explaining what it means ‘to be holy’?
Holiness is the quality of being with God, or being aware of God. If we are right with God, then the rest will follow as it should. If we are not right with God, then nothing follows as it should.
Templo S.U.D. over 14 years ago
Interesting pun there.
My dad is taking care of his widow[er]’s endorphins too since my mother passed away… but also to help with his diabetes.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Do you ever feel the presence of God? If so, when are you most aware of God? What do you feel God wants from / for you personally? Are you ever able to sense any of God’s emotions?
nobody_special Premium Member over 14 years ago
Aargghhh … !
nobody_special Premium Member over 14 years ago
@LuvH8:
Yes. All the time. That’s between Him and me. ;) Obviously He has a sense of humor because He created me! :D
freeholder1 over 14 years ago
And Peter, nobody. There was a hoot. From shifting sand to a stone in the drop of a sacred blood. Wish I could get that down.
runar over 14 years ago
Socialist!
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
LuvH8 Sometimes I feel the presence of God in an almost tangible way. He will bring a thought to my mind about how to deal with a problem I’ve been wrestling about, and just was “at my wit’s end” to know what to do. (That happened several times during my years of homeschooling my sons!) Whenever I think about Him, I know he is with me. What does He want? (Micah 6:8 NIV) He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. As a parent, I think I have gained more understanding of God’s emotions in the process. The wide range of emotions we have are part of how God created us. It is up to us to not let the emotions rule us, but rather that they are like the “spice” to our lives. We wouldn’t want to eat straight salt or any other spice for a meal, but most of us like some on our food, or our meal is too bland. Just like too much of a spice ruins our food, too much of any emotion can ruin our lives. Emotions are usually based on our circumstances, but we need to look “at the big picture.” If we do, we can have hope & joy knowing He is in control, and that this world isn’t all that life has to offer.
bmonk over 14 years ago
I agree, Rmom–the Bible, and the rest of revelation, have been given us so that we may recognize God when God is with us or speaks to us–but we also need that living, personal relationship, or the Bible won’t help us. I’m most aware of God when I pray, usually–but that doesn’t mean God is not with me at other times. Remember the “Footprints” poem…
What does God want from us? A relationship, to be with us, as in John 1:14: The Word became flesh, and pitched his tent among us. or Exodus 3:14, where God reveals his name, which means something like “I am who am”, or perhaps “I will be with you.” The God of love wants us to be people of love too.
As for God’s emotions, I often know God is laughing–and almost as often crying.
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
No disagreement with what you’ve stated, bunnyface!
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank you nobody_special ~ you seem special too me. I hope God has a sense of humor (or I am in trouble).
Thank You Rmom ~ I am glad that God has helped you with your sons. (maybe you should let them know that they should thank him for that) It sounds to me that you view God as a wise and loving parent. One who is always there, leads by example and does not let emotions decide what is best for his children. (If I am wrong please correct me, it is sometimes easier for me to understand if I rephrase things.)
Thank you Bunnyface ~ That was a very moving poem, I have read it once long ago. I phrased it the most aware of God because I assumed that He is always there, just sometimes people are more aware than others. I like God of love, that is a nice way to put it. Um, is God crying possibly why I feel guilty when I swear now and automatically apologize. Why would God be laughing?
Plods with ...™ over 14 years ago
Are endorphins steroids? Looks like the widows been into a few if they’re not.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, after looking at myself, I know God has a sense of humor.
No, God enjoys being with us as we discover the world, much as we enjoy being with a toddler or infant who is just finding out how much fun peek-a-boo or being on a swing is. And that sort of laughter–and many others–is contagious.
bmonk over 14 years ago
As for the God of Love, in the New Testament, at least eight different traditions–including all the major ones–have one form or another of the Love command:
Love one another (as I have loved you). Love your enemies. Love God with your whole heart and soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Bunnyface ~ If you love them are they really your enemies?
Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them so much. (Oscar Wilde)
I do not suppose that is a good reason to forgive those who consider themselves your enemy, and act accordingly.
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
LuvH8 - You are basically correct in one of the ways I see God - however, He’s perfect, and I’m far from a perfect parent. I also see God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (sometimes I’m confused which one of the Trinity - ask bunnyface if you want accuracy) as my closest friend. He’s there when no one else is, and NEVER gets tired of listening to me (unlike my husband, my sons, etc.)
Believe it or not, Oscar Wilde wasn’t too far off:
(Prov 25:21-22 NIV) If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@Joe, as we put it: Love the sinner, hate the sin. But not always so easy to distinguish in real life. (Another reason we all always need to grow…)
@LuvH8, I would say that there are at least two ways to define enemies: those you hate or resist, and those who hate or attack you. Either one is a good candidate for learning to love. I find the best way to begin is to pray for them, and even to thank God for their gifts for me. Even if I find it hard to see how they are using those gifts for my good.
@Rmom, I would think that Jesus–the human face of God–would be the easiest to have as a friend. I find the Holy Spirit welling up in my heart, and the Father as the transcendent Other who stands behind creation and authority and other such things. But Jesus is the one who came to be with us in all things.
By the way, I must note that the religious discussion here over the past month or more has certainly gotten more civilized on all sides. Thank you, and good work!
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Bmonk (Bunnyface) - I have to most trouble with are the ones who hate or attack anyone (yes, sometimes including myself, on both sides). If nothing else I would consider it their gift to be “a horrible warning”, that reminds me to try to not do the same.
Rmom - Sounds like a good friend. Perfect? That sounds a bit intimidating, I think I would prefer almost perfect.
Joe said: Jesus made hatred the spiritual equivalent of murder committed in one’s heart. This is one of the reasons why I feel I would end up in the bad place. If someone does many hateful things, or things that are awful. I have trouble not hating the person. Most of the time I eventually work through it (sometimes it takes years). It would probably help if the person would at least attempt to stop doing hateful things.
Joe - I would be interested in your answers to my questions above, even if you only answer one or two.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Joe ~ Does it matter so much if the phrase “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” is in the Bible.
It sounds a lot like “You can unconditionally love someone and yet not like what they do.” Which is what you said.
When I was growing up, hate covered a wide range of negative emotions from mild dislike to detesting. I’m pretty sure the phrase Bmonk (Bunnyface) used is older than me.
I do think it is often more difficult not to hate something than to hate it. Do you really consider hating things, actions or ideas against your religious beliefs?
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
I hope your ex- brother-in-law has seeked out some method of better controlling himself, and learned to like himself as well. I have found that most people who are abusive (mentally and/or physically) actually hate themselves.
How can you think someone is your enemy if you do not recognize them as such. We have some enemies we know and some we don’t . I would have to say that some people are our enemies without even knowing it themselves.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
I am confused by your last post Joe, would you mind simplifying it for me.
I know some would consider that communicating with God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit as something imagined or a sign of mental illness. (Actually it is one of the signs of mental illness for some. Especially if God is telling them to eliminate all sinners with a weed whacker.) I am open to the possibility of communicating with God, but would be wary of taking someone else’s word at face value, if I did not know that person.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Joe, it seems to me that you are determined to take issue with whatever anyone else says.
I did not say that anyone who communicates with God is mentally ill. I said that it can be a sign of mental illness. It can also be someone who is lying for whatever purpose. I also said I was open to the possiblilty of someone communicating with God.
If we believe every person who says they communicate with God or that God is communicating through them, then we are “ignorant”. It is not wise to accept what other people say on blind faith.
There are always people who use “the word of God” from the Bible or their own communications with God to justify doing terrible things, including torturing and killing others. Or use “the word of God” to profit themselves in some way.
So, I don’t think everyone who says they communicate with God is mentally ill. I also don’t take it for granted that they are sane or truthful.
As for Peter and Paul I haven’t read those parts of the Bible. (or much of it at all)
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
I asked people those questions because I was curious as to what others felt, and because it seems like sometimes people get so caught up in the facts that they forget the feelings.
Maybe it is because I am not aware of all the facts, but I consider the feelings and overall teachings to be just as important as the facts. I know most of the commentors here are well versed in the facts, but their feelings in a lot of cases are unclear to me.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
By the way Joe ~ Since I am one of the mentally ill, are you saying that I cannot communicate with God and feel the presence of Him?
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, another saying is that God makes us holy, but not necessarily whole. So, as I understand it, being mentally ill is no barrier to communicating with God.
On the other hand, I cannot speak for what Mr. Doty might say or believe; I am confident that he can, and will, speak for himself.
Another insight I’ve gotten into hate: hate implies some sort of love or concern, at least for something. What we need to do is to unfold it so the love is on the outside of the package. Then we can look at it to see whether it is worthy of us, and decide if it’s a love we really want to keep as is, or whether we need to grow to a deeper love.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank you Bmonk, it might take me a while to understand your second message. I will think about it and ask questions if I still don’t understand.
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
bmonk, On the love and hate of God. I try to explain it as two sides of the same coin. God loves all His sheep that He chose and gave to the Son. But as with Isaac and Jacob, He hates the one He did not chose and loves the one that He did chose: Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” See also Rev 2:6 & 15 for Christ’s use of hate.
So one side of the coin has love which is expressed in His mercy/grace to those He chose for salvation and the other side has His hatred and upon whom He will pour out His justice/wrath. So grace/mercy and wrath/justice are also opposites.
We also see information provided to the believer on how they are to behave - this is in support of what Mr. Doty has been saying. 1 John 2:9-11 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Now that last verse seems in conflict with this one: Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
All I am trying to point out is these anthropopathisms are God’s way of communicating His hatred and we have to be careful how we use the words Love and Hate.
Jude 20-23 sort of pulls this all the various posts together: 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
On God making us Holy, I would agree, that is part of the act of justifying us at the point we express faith in Christ. Not only that but that God treats us as positionally sanctified (Holy, Set Apart), though not temporally.
dead.theologians.society over 14 years ago
On mental illness, I would say that if sin had never entered the world we would not have mental illness. I see that as a by-product so to speak.
On getting along with folks, I am not as concerned about that as I consider it more important to be faithful the Scripture we have been given than to others. I would reference in support of that Romans 16:17 “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them”. Paul is speaking of the doctrine he taught them. Combined with Eph 4:14-15 ” that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—”. So I am of the opinion that doctrine will divide.
I have enjoyed all the discussions with Mr. Doty, Bunnyface, LuvH8, bmonk, DerekA and others. Yes there will be disagreements, but they should all be to where we increase our knowledge and learn.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@Phil DeBlanc, another explanation I’ve heard on the “hate” of God is that the original language of Jesus (Aramaic) had no word between love and hate, so it was hard to say “like” or “love less”–instead it came out, for example, to love God and hate your family.
Yet another explanation: since people in Jesus’ day took their self-identity from their people and family, much as we identify ourselves by our job, our sports-team affiliation, or our nationality, only more so, to “deny” or “hate” your family meant turning away from your self-definition and allowing God to give you a new identity–hence the “new name” spoken of in Rev. 2:17 (and also 3:12).
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Phil DeBlanc
Do you ever feel the presence of God? If so, when are you most aware of God? What do you feel God wants from / for you personally? Are you ever able to sense any of God’s emotions?
I am curious as to how you would answer the questions, without referencing the Bible. Just your feelings. You may have already answered but I sort of got lost trying to understand what you wrote.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Phil N. DeBlanc Would you mind explaining your theory on mental illness?
Having a mental illness (possibly a few), and being around people with mental illnesses and/or developmental disabilities has improved my life in some ways (not that I wouldn’t rather be ‘normal’). I feel I have learned to be: ~ more patient ~ more tolerant of differences ~ willing to take more time to understand what a person means, not just what they are saying, and less likely to jump to conclusions because I hear/read a word or phrase that I dislike ~ more able to understand that it is possible to like (luv) someone and not like everything they do or think ~ to understand that sometimes a person is not totally aware of the possible effects of their actions/words ~ greater sympathy and empathy
I don’t like being bipolar (wishing that you would just conveinently die, and thinking that you are a failure are not fun). I’d hate to think that God made me bipolar as a punishment for my or others sins. It would take away from the positive aspects I have spent so long trying to recognize. Kind of like God saying:
Bad LuvH8, No Happy For You!!!Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Joe perhaps you could benefit from learning more about mental illnesses. Being mentally ill does not necessarily make a person “crazy”. In spite of you not having “a problem with people taking medicines prescribed by psychiatrists.” You definitely show signs of being prejudice against mental illness, and frequently make offensive comments about mental illness.
Since I have not called you mentally ill (aside from being concerned that you may have problems with depression) I also take offense at your acting like I am accusing you of being crazy.
BTW ~ I have met several people who ‘hear voices’ that also say they communicate with God. The way you phrased your response automatically calls them liars. Why?
Smiley Rmom over 14 years ago
LuvH8 - To me it isn’t intimidating at all, to think of God as perfect. I would rather try to imitate someone who IS perfect, than to imitate someone who is flawed. God understands when we aren’t perfect, that is why Jesus has paid the penalty, so that we can be forgiven. Only when we compare ourselves to perfection, can we see that we are in need of a Savior. One clear guide to know if it is truly God speaking to you, is that whatever is said, will never conflict with what is in the Bible. For example, if someone says that God told them to leave their spouse, and take up with someone else, it wasn’t God who told them to do that. As far as mental illness being a result of sin entering the world, I agree. So are death and all other illnesses. But in Romans 8:28, in says, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” God can take what was meant for evil, and use it for good. Joseph’s life (Genesis chapters 30-50 is where you can read about him) was an example of that principle. (Gen 50:20 NIV) “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.” Just as the sins I have committed in the past make me less judgmental of others, so should any other areas where we have struggled make us more compassionate. Most people who don’t realize they are imperfect, have a problem with pride, but fail to see it in themselves.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Joe ~ If I misinterpreted what you meant then it is probably because you often type things that are hateful and ignorant about mental illness and people who believe differently than you. You may have more knowledge of the facts of religion, but I wonder how much you actually understand. I deal with enough prejudice in Real Life, so I will pray for you (Bunnyface says that’s alright) but I am not going to discuss religion with you any more.
BTW ~ No one has any way of knowing whether your screen name is made up or real. And if you do not want to talk to people with made up screen names:
STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!!!DerekA over 14 years ago
LuvH8, Actually Joe and I have had some serious discussions in the past and I did look him up. I may disagree with Joe in one area, but over time I have come top respect his comments, and I try now to go out of my way to supplement what he says or clarify. I think Phil try to do the same thing as well. I agree, it is a disadvantage. Joe tends to be a very public person. He sticks to his point - for proof of that see Non-Sequiter today and Wiley’s response. I think Wiley’s response is typical of secular people - they do not want to reconcile the spiritual with scripture and reality. They will joke about God until the judgment. I think all that Joe and most of us want is for folks to think through their theology and see where it takes them - and don’t kid yourself - everyone has a theology including the atheist.
Joe, If I ever get back to Tulsa, I will take you out for dinner - my treat.
Oh and the reason I don’t use my last name is because when I did - all I got were nasty e-mails from folks who tracked me down
DerekA over 14 years ago
Ok - been out of town for w few and will try and look at what has been going on.
Bmonk - on “hate’ in the Old Testament - it is everywhere - about 80 or so verses - see Strongs number 8130 for one usage, See Atam 2251 in BDB, See Harris 2272a also Harris 0078.0 - there are more Aramaic derivitives - but the point is hate was expressed in Aramaic and so neither Jesus nor Paul or any aposle/disciple were unfamiliar with the words or concept and the shades of meaning. My point would be that if the author used the word hate in the Aramaic and it was written in Greek, then we know exactly what was meant.
Clearly God hates sin - he does not just like it less than non sin. When Phil talks about opposite sides of a coin - I take that to mean not having an slight compatibility. As John puts it in the Gospel and his apostles - can light have fellowship with darkness? In first John it is a comparison only between light and darkness - no walking in the shade - it is an either or. I don’t mean to be hard on this but I think God really really hates sin - so much that He turned His back on His Son for 3 hours so Jesus could have the punishment applied to Him for all the Father had chosen.
Joe - Luke 14 and Matt 10 passages - I have no problem with your approach - Jesus was talking commitment - just like to the rich young ruler.
I am not going to try and answer questions posted to Phil - ok one thing on emotions - in the OT many of the emotions are expressed by the use of body parts, heart, kidneys, bowels. I am a person who believes my God is an emotional God - just from the usage of words like love, hate, wrath, joy, happiness, sadness, sorrow - one has to look no further than Jesus to see emotions from Him as a hypostatic being - fully God and fully man.
Since I am on a role - I believe every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus and the Father. So I do believe and do ask for several things when I study scripture - first wisdom from God - not knowledge - and second that I would be enlightened See Ephesians 1:17-18.
hmmm - mental illness - I will take shot at that too. I suspect Phil is a person that believes when sin entered the world it was genetically passed down from generation to generation - I don’t think Joe would agree with that - just a guess though from what I have seen him post in the past.
If genetic - it would mean sin is in everyone at conception (Jesus being the exception since the Father was the Holy Spirit) is created “in sin” The point I would argue is that Adam in his original state had full mental faculties - no sin, but the ability to choose to sin - at the point he decided in his mind to choose to eat the fruit - that would be the first case of mental illness as choosing to eat really was the sin - eating the fruit was just consummating the thought. Think again of Jesus’ comment on hating your brother is the same as murder. Adam’s thought of doing it was the same as doing it.
Ok I am out of here for a while.
Charles Brobst Premium Member over 14 years ago
Support widows and orphans. We need more of them.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Okay really simplified:
Mental illness & other illnesses, disabilities & challenges we face in life are the result of sin. God uses these to teach us that we (the person who is affected and others) are not perfect and should try to overcome our imperfections.
Yes or No or Almost, but……..?
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
DerekA
After looking up theology in the dictionary, I find that I disagree that everyone has a theology. I do think that everyone has a belief system. In my case, one day I was doing something and realized I really did not know how I would define my spirituality, which is not the same thing as religion. So, I am trying to learn about different belief systems to help me define my spirituality.
I am interested in Christianity, not because I want to convert, but because I want to understand more about it. Most of the experience I have with people who call themselves Christians has been very negative. I’m kind of hoping that Christianity is more about love than hate (in all their forms).
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, I’d agree with your in part. We do treat mental illness differently from other illnesses. Do we blame a man who is missing a leg for being incomplete? Do we treat a woman with diabetes as if it were her fault? But we often tend to treat mentally disturbed or ill people as if they were to blame, and that is wrong when it happens.
I also like the saying that “God calls us to holiness more than to wholeness.” Which is that we are called to be holy, and do not necessarily need to be whole to be holy. But we cannot really be whole–not only physically and mentally but spiritually as well–if we are not holy.
bmonk over 14 years ago
@LuvH8, also, remember two things:
Christians are (except those in heaven) still sinners. We are in the Church because we are sinners, and need the Church for its support. We are not there because we are perfect–those who are perfect don’t need the Church, or even God.
Christians, like everybody else, have a remarkable dexterity for missing the point. We know it’s about love, but forget, and get caught up in the minor things, and hate, and the rest. That’s why we need to turn to the Bible, and to the liturgy so often–to remind us what we are about, to bring us again to God’s call to repent and believe, and all the rest of our way.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Bmonk According to my doctors I have a lot more control over whether I become diabetic (late onset diabetes runs in my family) than whether I have a mental illness. I do understand what you mean though.
Would you mind explaining what it means ‘to be holy’?
bmonk over 14 years ago
Holiness is the quality of being with God, or being aware of God. If we are right with God, then the rest will follow as it should. If we are not right with God, then nothing follows as it should.
Ooops! Premium Member over 14 years ago
Thank you Bmonk