An Open Letter to Whomever Wins This Election:
I don’t care about promises, hype, the media, or bloggers.
I want our soldiers home, and out of harm’s way.
I want our economy to be healed.
I want our country’s international reputation out of the toilet.
And I want dignity restored to the Oval Office.
Good luck. Now get to work.
I want our soldiers home, and out of harm’s way.
I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way.
I want our economy to be healed.
You’re asking this from the bunch of nitwits that got us into this mess in the first place?
ccdesan, I want those things too. That’s why I voted in our “No Excuses” early voting. Just like nearly 200,000 of my friends and neighbors in Mecklenburg county, North Carolina.
I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way.
Brilliant. So it’s ok for US troops to lose their lives in a pointless, unecessary war provided that you get to pretend that you’re safe from non-threats. Which would you say describes you more: utterly selfish or utterly delusional?
[I want our soldiers home] with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way.Brilliant. So it’s ok for US troops to lose their lives in a pointless, unnecessary war
Well, that’s probably one of the lamest statements you could make, but I suppose with calling yourself “The Jerk Store” that I should expect nothing less.
OBVIOUSLY — — if US troops are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way, then the war is NOT pointless and unnecessary. That should be a statement of simple logic without need for explanation. This is the whole reason why we have troops ready to lay down their lives in the first place — to keep the rest of us safe.
Obviously whether US troops actually are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way remains a matter that’s open to debate. Yes, your opinion is quite clear. Just please recognize that, just because you and all your liberal buddies agree with each other in a massive “kumbaya” sing-along doesn’t mean you’re correct.
Which would you say describes you more: utterly selfish or utterly delusional?
You’re projecting again.
Unca –
“if US troops are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way, then the war is NOT pointless and unnecessary”
You’re begging the question: To suggest that soldiers are fighting to keep us safe as an explanation for why they are keeping us safe is a clear fallacy of argument. And if that same fallacy of argument is being perpetrated on a grand scale (and costing American lives!), then it is not OBVIOUS, it is WITHOUT LOGIC and it DOES REQUIRE EXPLANATION.
I’m with you ccdesan. As am American living abroad for 20 years now. I have been appalled by the destruction of our hard-won reputation built up over the last 300 years. It has been so sad for those of us abroad to witness the debacle on so many fronts that has been the Bush administration. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
UncaAlby,
I’m going to try and be real careful here. I don’t know you and I don’t want to offend you. I just want you to be sure you understand that we are in a pointless war in Iraq and it is a war we caused ourselves. Every life lost in Iraq, ours, theirs and anyone elses, is a precious thing lost. I’m saying this after I served 23 years in the Army. I have a son in the Army. Every male member of my family has been in the military, and many of the women. I have close family in Iraq, all safe, so far, thank God. We have no business there, except to fix what WE messed up. Afghanistan is another matter and I pray God guides whomever we elect tomorrow.
ccdesan’s letter is right dead on and you should echo it, rather than add ‘provisios’ and other ignorant comments. Our country is screwed up and we need to find someone who can fix it. Even if they’re the ones who screwed it up in the first place.
Roger, but not That one etc.
Yes, I am aware that we were not a country then, but we were nonetheless already building up that well-deserved reputation….so I’ll stick with my math ;-)
Oh, and btw, my family on both sides were around in said colonies already in the 1640’s which is a bit more than 300 years….
You know what astonishes me is that all of these people out there who claim to be “well educated in the issues” seems to forget who really runs this country. It is not President Bush, although he does have some power, but it is the congress who can overrule him who has the real power. And it also baffles me that so many people forgot that during Clinton’s rain of stupidity (yes I am a Republican but I am also a little disenchanted with our Pres.) that the congress was controlled by the republicans. So the prosperity that we had during that time was not Bill’s to claim, but claim he did. Also people need to look back and realize that our economy was doing ok up until the last 2 years until the Dem’s took over congress and really screwed bleeep up.
The congress does not “run the country” as you suggest. The congress does suggest legislation that the president can either enforce or veto. It’s about checks balances, and no one branch holds any more sway than another (including the judicial branch).
As for the “do-nothing Congress” … well, that’s wrong, too. The current Congress inherited a broken, vastly deregulated financial system and a Commander-in-Chief who redefined abuse of power and wanton use of line-item vetoes. In truth, there’s plenty of blame to go around on all sides, so to say that the democratic congress is to blame misses the point.
Same can be said for your suggestion that the republican congress did all the good during the Clinton era – that is, that statement is also wrong. He is credited on both sides for strengthening the economy in his first term with initiatives he brought to Congress. He based his economic policy largely on fiscal responsibility, strengthening the middle class and balancing the budget (and now that I think about it, that sounds kind of familiar?).
What dypak said. He has the stripes (literally and figuratively) and I agree 100%. I was against the war from day 1. I argued for hours with neocon types about WMD and offered a bet of their favorite bottle of liquor when WMDs were found. To date, I’ve not had to pay off yet. Here’s to election day tomorrow and the one over-riding reality. If you don’t VOTE, you can’t KVETCH!
Do they run out of space? Negative. You can filibuster and rant so long as your fingers and keyboard hold up and there will still be room for more.
Got anything you want to sound off about? This is the politicrap channel for any and all to make their feelings heard.
Everybody has the right to say what they feel, all the Susan001’s and the UncaAlby’s out there, I like hearing what EACH has to say; but neither has the right to tell me how I should think or what I can say.
pibfanbrux - Back in the 1640’s, “our” reputation consisted largely of intolerance toward one set of my ancestors (i.e. Roman Catholics) and a rather murderous antipathy toward another set of my ancestors (i.e. the Narragansetts and Iroquois). Most of my ancestors were here then, as well, even if some of them were in Quebec and some others were in the Hawaiian islands (which YOUR ancestors later stole from mine, just like they did in New England). However… after that many generations, we’re pretty much all related anyhow and staying mad just puts wrinkles in the forehead.
You’re begging the question:
No, I’m explaining my statement. Ccdesan said he wants our soldiers home and safe. I said I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way.
It’s a very simple statement. No one has convinced me that pulling our troops home *is* the best course of action that keeps Americans and American interests safe.
Yes, I know the liberals believe that Al Queda and their cohorts are all a figment of Bush/Cheney’s imagination, created out of whole cloth to make Halliburton rich. I’m sorry if I don’t quite share that opinion.
There are many things wrong with this war, I suspect we’ll have it for a long time, even if Obama wins tomorrow – for one thing, both parties are using it as a vehicle to smuggle Pork. That’s one of the things that’s making it so expensive. Campaign rhetoric aside, I don’t think the Democrats are going to give up that gravy train so easily.
But I am not convinced that stopping terrorists and keeping America safe is among those wrong things.
I said it before and I’ll say it again.Opinions are like A**holes;everyone has one and they all stink! Quit trying to shove all this opinionated garbage down peoples throats, tommorrow go Vote Your Conscience.Whoever wins,wins.If you don’t know who your going to vote for by now…than there’s something wrong.
And I can read between the lines, too!
Yes, I know, you see all sorts of hallucinations between the lines.
Reading comprehension? You? Don’t make me laugh.
TXJeeper: Please crack open a history book instead of getting all your information from Rush Limbaugh.
“it is the congress who can overrule him who has the real power”
That’s hilarious. Bush has amassed so much power in the executive branch now, he can flagrantly ignore the laws he signs when he feels like it with no repercussions, and frequently does.
Bill Clinton got a balanced budget over the Republicans’ objections by calling their bluff several times and shutting down the government by refusing to sign their budgets until they fixed them. As we have seen in the past quarter century, Republican presidents spend money at a vastly faster rate than Democrats ever do.
“our economy was doing ok up until the last 2 years until the Dem’s took over congress”
No, it wasn’t. Growth has been miserably small the whole time, and Bush has been pouring hundreds of billions into the Iraq sinkhole. This latest disaster is the result of long-standing policies, not something implemented in the past two years. Anyway, if you look at the actual laws being passed, you’ll see that Congress has basically given Bush everything he wants, regardless of which party has been in power there. The Democrats do share some of the blame for what’s happening now, not because Democrats have bad policies but because they have not stood up to the Republicans like Bill Clinton did and shout “NO!” when they want to burn more money and more of our civil liberties.
Dypak - Don’t worry about offending Unc. He loves to be offended. He lives to be offended. That’s why he posts here.
That’s not true at all. I tolerate being offended. What I’m looking for is healthy discussion.
I don’t get much of that in conservative echo chambers. Just like you don’t get much of it in the liberal echo chambers.
But try to remember – just because you’re in an echo chamber and keep hearing your same opinion bouncing back at you all the time, doesn’t mean you’re right. Indeed, if you’re so certain you’re right that you no longer need to explain it to anyone in a rational manner, it’s probably the most important time to take another look and make sure you’re not just another echo.
UncafriggenknowitallAlby:I’m Actually for the most part on your side. But it’s people like you who make the rest of us conservatives look bad.
Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME for being so horrible as to express myself in a public forum!
And how is it being “mostly on my side” to tell people to stop posting their “opinionated garbage”? Freedom of speech doesn’t imply an obligation to listen – if you don’t want to read people’s opinionated garbage, DON’T READ IT.
but neither has the right to tell me how I should think or what I can say.
mmmmm – technically speaking –
We do have the right to tell you how you should think or what you can say.
But you also have the right to just ignore us!
whoa…the name calling just doesn’t stop. neither in the campaigns nor in our public forums. Actually it’s a lot simpler here since all commenters are anonymous, hiding behind their computer screens. Folks, let us continue having a civil dialogue, discussion and by all means let us disagree with each other…But please stop the name callings.
Well, there are really two aspects to this victory. 1 - Millitary victory. This was never really in question. The issue really is how best (after Saddam) US can help support Iraq without bleeding itself to death. However, this millitary victory does not mean a victory on the war on terror. But it kind of sets a precedent that US might attack any country that it deems unsafe…Not the smartest move, but again, Bush alone did not have the power to take it on. It had support from all quarters.
2 - Victory over the war on terror is a difficult task. It requires all like minded countries to come together and take the terrorists out. But countries are also like individuals…so they ask the same question. “Why should I care”. Building a common task force is not only difficult, but next to impossible. So once in a while, you do have to go solo since you are the one who is suffering.
To answer the question now, “Winning the war on terrorism is primarily centered upon winning the struggle of ideas”. Now go figure how to achieve this.
Unca – Don’t apologize for disagreeing. In fact, keep disagreeing. THAT is what makes dialogue worthwhile. And, ironically to some in this forum, discord is what promotes change and moves the dialectic of history.
Terrorists are not a figment of anyone’s imagination. But to the question of ‘why we fight’ we keep getting an answer that ‘because we fight is why we fight.’ That circuitous, empty logic demands an explanation.
So why? WMD? No. Unmitigated pork? Perhaps, but that’s not good enough. The neo-con belief that strong foreign policy and promoting global democracy builds domestic security? People are too afraid to say it, but that seems to be the real reason. And that is bad for America. And in my humble little opinion, pulling back the troops IN A RESPONSIBLE MANNER would do more to promote security than furthering our aggression (for lack of a better term).
We tried it one way, and pre-emptive strike is looking more and more like “The War on Drugs Redux” than a viable solution. Time to try something else. Perhaps what you see as liberal grandstanding is a demand for a solution that causes less harm.
attyush:
““Winning the war on terrorism is primarily centered upon winning the struggle of ideas””
Are you quoting that from somewhere? ‘cause that’s dead on. Or is that your own. If so … right.
We’re not in a war with clearly identified objectives, and it appears we are in a war of attrition. We’ve (America) tried that before; didn’t work out too well. So how to win the ideological war?
Well, we “fought” an ideological war of fear against Communism for 30-odd years, and it took dialogue to end that. I would suggest that through mutual understanding, we could achieve close to the same now (ach, I just know I’ll get harpooned for that thought!). But you can’t ever “win” a war of idea with sabre rattling.
Well, we “fought” an ideological war of fear against Communism for 30-odd years, and it took dialogue to end that. I would suggest that through mutual understanding, we could achieve close to the same now
That is what I was getting at…the ideological dialogue has been lost in a barrage of malignments. First and foremost, we must as a nation agree with what we are doing, and in the rush to do something, anything, after 9/11 was too soon for rational debate.
Let us hope it shall begin, because sending our troops to whatever soveriegn nation might harbor a terrorist cell amounts to global whack-a-mole, and my many trips to Chuck E. Cheese’s in my youth has proven it is not the best way to win tickets (or enlist the aid of foreign allies).
While I do not agree with the Iraq war, I fully support the actions taken after 9/11. It was a horrific crime that deserved a strong response, not a dialog. Will it affect innocents? You bet. Did we have other options? None.
There are three branches in the United States government as established by the Constitution. First, the Legislative branch makes the law. Second, the Executive branch executes the law. Last, the Judicial branch interprets the law. Each branch has an effect on the other.
It would be short sighted and wrong to give blame to one branch alone.
We, The United States of America have been fortunate to have lived with out the threat of terrorism. Also a bit naive. Look outside our boarders, The British Isles lives with terrorism as does Spain, Italy, France, India, Nepal, most Latin American countries, Pakistan, Israel, Palestine and most African nations. We globally have been living with terrorism from with in our boarders and from foreign forces. We were not the first targets nor will we be the last.
We had a golden opportunity with most of the world after 9/11 to forge better diplomatic relations and come up with a global assist on fighting terrorism . There was a chance for open exchange about terrorism and willingness from Russia and China as well as Israel and South Korea to work with us. Instead, we were given information, that has come to light was not factual, that we should take out Saddaam and all our trouble will be gone.
So, sorry but Al-Qaeda does not recognize borders but also does not reside in Iraq.
Al-Qaeda has its origins in the uprising against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Thousands of volunteers from around the Middle East came to Afghanistan as mujahideen, warriors fighting to defend fellow Muslims. In the mid-1980s, Osama bin Laden became the prime financier for an organization that recruited Muslims from mosques around the world. These “Afghan Arab” mujahideen, which numbered in the thousands, were crucial in defeating Soviet forces.
After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, bin Laden returned to his native Saudi Arabia. He founded an organization to help veterans of the Afghan war, many of whom went on to fight elsewhere (including Bosnia) and comprise the basis of al-Qaeda. We, the US of A have given money and arms to Al-Qaeda in the past. They were freedom fighters and we liked that. We didn’t like that they felt we were infringing on their rights and culture, hence 9/11.
As we know, Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, and as tyrannical as Sadaam was, he had nothing to do with the attack of 9/11.
So, let’s go after bin Laden and crew. It would be very difficult for the US to start causing any problems with Saudi Arabia. We need their oil and have ties that go back in our nations history both Rep. and Dem.
So, IF we are really going to do something about the war on terrorism let’s take some geography lessons, get straight facts and be willing to sever our ties with OPEC.
The name calling and pointing fingers is not going to make us a stronger better nation. We are all part of this problem and need to be active in the solutions.
I was just a twinkle in my moms eye when JFK asked:
“Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.”
This administration along with the next dozen isn’t going to fix our problems; we are going to fix our country, there is no other way.
What can I do today to make my home, work place, community a better place?
Did I tell my children something positive, did I tell them that I love them, that I am proud of their accomplishments?
Have I thanked my partner, my colleague, my child’s teacher, a neighbor, a friend for their time, effort or understanding
Should we not have had an answer [to how to win] before declaring war on terror?
Unfortunately, we DID have an answer, or we THOUGHT we did, and turned out to be the wrong question.
Stateless terrorism is a relatively new phenomenon in foreign affairs. Our history is filled with contentious struggles, sometimes violent, sometimes not, with other nations. We won the Cold War with the Soviet Union in part because they knew we could make their home address radioactive.
You can’t make that threat against stateless terrorists who can hide anywhere, including within your own borders.
I was against going into Iraq, both times. I was against going into Afghanistan, which many of our liberal buddies were for. I was against the military action in Kosovo, which our liberal buddies were just thrilled about.
BUT – now that we are THERE, I think it would be a mistake at this juncture to just cut and run.
Make no mistake – American liberals think the struggle in Iraq is pointless – Al Queda does not.
all of this vitriol makes me sad. i agree with uncaalby: healthy discussion is important, and a great way to get insights is by discussing issues with others who hold different views from your own. i wish fewer people viewed discussions as personal attacks.
unca–i would agree that al queda does not feel that our presence in iraq is pointless. i think that al quida needs our presence there to continue its strategy of spreading ill-will towards america, increasing their recruitment, and bankrupting america. i think that the best way to protect our country at this juncture is to: reduce american ill-will in the middle east by starting to pull out of iraq and stopping all this negative and offensive rhetoric. i think we need to show more respect for muslims, and that will go a long way towards reducing the al queda influence in the region. i think that we would do better to marshall our resources to increase our intelligence gathering and deplomatic efforts, instead of squandering our soldiers, money, and equipment fighting a guerilla war.
why do you feel it would be better to stay?
Merciful mother of Mogg, I had no idea my Christmas list would unleash such a firestorm of ɹɐƃәu!ʌ puɐ ss!d.
Show some dignity, folks. We can have a world where everyone wins, but how can we expect our elected officials to act with civility and restraint when we - the ones who put them into their seats - can’t do so first?
Please remember that whoever wins this election, the popular vote will indicate that a large percentage of our nation’s citizens voted for someone else, and the winners will ignore that at their peril.
Clinton - in my opinion - was a shrewd politician and a capable administrator, but an amoral human being. The thing that irked me the most about his administration - besides the obvious event which sullied the dignity of the oval office - was the attitude towards others who didn’t think as they did. “It’s the Economy, Stupid” was the most demeaning political slogan I have ever heard from a national platform. Once the Clintonites were elected, they acted with total disdain towards the “other half” of the American people. It was almost as if they were saying, “We’re in power now, so you conservatives can go ʍǝɹɔs yourselves.”
My wish is for our soldiers to be home with their families, and out of harm’s way. I have no idea how that’s going to happen, but I don’t advocate a “cut and run” strategy. I hate this war, I hate everything about it, I hate the lies and misrepresentations that got us into it, but UncaAlby is only making the point that despite all of those things, our nation still faces threats against which we must have adequate protection. I saw nothing in his proviso to justify the kind of personal attacks which were generated.
It’s possible to disagree without being disagreeable. To my chagrin, the recent campaign would seem to belie that, but my belief in civility remains unshaken.
I expect better from people than I see here, but I’m also open to the possibility that I’m not going to get it.
*Yes, I know the liberals believe that Al Queda and their cohorts are all a figment of Bush/Cheney’s imagination, created out of whole cloth to make Halliburton rich. I’m sorry if I don’t quite share that opinion. *
or
Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME for being so horrible as to express myself in a public forum!
or
Make no mistake – American liberals think the struggle in Iraq is pointless – Al Queda does not.
Got to love those blatant anti-liberal statements that are confrontational and posted on a forum of a liberal based comic strip.
So, go ahead and stand up for Unc but don’t judge anyone else here for calling him out on his own ‘crap.’
Fridakins,
I participate in a listserv for translators and interpreters - messages are shared via email. You’d think the main topic would be translation and interpretation, but instead the list has been hijacked by about 8 people that have engaged in the most infantile political war of words, lasting years. The rest of us stick around because at need, it’s a useful tool.
My weapon of choice over there is the “DEL” key. The equivalent here in on this forum would be the “Ignore” button.
If someone - anyone - voices an opinion you disagree with, you’re always at choice. You can respond, which usually invites point/counterpoint/escalation - or you can bend with the wind and let controversy flow past you.
Remember what we discussed over at Pib about how Amos and Edda needed to listen to each other without rebuttal? Listening by being with, and actually trying to understand what the other person is saying? Two people who do that - I don’t care what their opinions are - can have a civilized, enlightening and mutually edifying exchange. It’s about respect, nothing more.
If one side - either side - moves to a place of “I’m just waiting for you to take a breath so I can make my point”, communication is over, and the best thing to do is back out.
Every moment is a choice - every choice has prices and benefits. If you “call someone on their crap”, you’re making a choice that serves you in some ways and costs you in some ways. It’s up to you to decide which side of the equation wins out.
In this case, UncaAlby is only the “Teacher in the Moment”. It’s not my place to defend or rebut his ideas or his communication style. I only saw this “discussion” devolve into a playground sand-throwing session, and suggested that there are better ways to conduct a debate.
Vieux Loup a parlé.
BUT – now that we are THERE, I think it would be a mistake at this juncture to just cut and run.
What can further American intervention accomplish? What is the exit strategy now? How long before we are no longer “cutting and running”, and don’t the terrorists have to merely wait one day longer than that?
The Old Wolf almost 16 years ago
An Open Letter to Whomever Wins This Election: I don’t care about promises, hype, the media, or bloggers. I want our soldiers home, and out of harm’s way. I want our economy to be healed. I want our country’s international reputation out of the toilet. And I want dignity restored to the Oval Office. Good luck. Now get to work.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
ccdesan says:
I want our soldiers home, and out of harm’s way. I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way. I want our economy to be healed. You’re asking this from the bunch of nitwits that got us into this mess in the first place?
sappha58 almost 16 years ago
ccdesan, I want those things too. That’s why I voted in our “No Excuses” early voting. Just like nearly 200,000 of my friends and neighbors in Mecklenburg county, North Carolina.
The_Jerk_Store almost 16 years ago
UncaAlby says:
ccdesan says:
I want our soldiers home, and out of harm’s way.
I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way.
Brilliant. So it’s ok for US troops to lose their lives in a pointless, unecessary war provided that you get to pretend that you’re safe from non-threats. Which would you say describes you more: utterly selfish or utterly delusional?
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
The_Jerk_Store says:
UncaAlby says:
[I want our soldiers home] with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way. Brilliant. So it’s ok for US troops to lose their lives in a pointless, unnecessary war Well, that’s probably one of the lamest statements you could make, but I suppose with calling yourself “The Jerk Store” that I should expect nothing less. OBVIOUSLY — — if US troops are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way, then the war is NOT pointless and unnecessary. That should be a statement of simple logic without need for explanation. This is the whole reason why we have troops ready to lay down their lives in the first place — to keep the rest of us safe. Obviously whether US troops actually are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way remains a matter that’s open to debate. Yes, your opinion is quite clear. Just please recognize that, just because you and all your liberal buddies agree with each other in a massive “kumbaya” sing-along doesn’t mean you’re correct. Which would you say describes you more: utterly selfish or utterly delusional? You’re projecting again.
HUMPHRIES almost 16 years ago
T J S, Ask “W” and crew, then consider “Uncle Dick” and business associates.
NoFearPup almost 16 years ago
The election is also about how people can be in a bubble for twenty years and not know what is going on in front of them. It’s 2008 Trudeau!
KingRat almost 16 years ago
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” – George Orwell
BirishB almost 16 years ago
Unca – “if US troops are keeping the rest of us safe and out of harm’s way, then the war is NOT pointless and unnecessary” You’re begging the question: To suggest that soldiers are fighting to keep us safe as an explanation for why they are keeping us safe is a clear fallacy of argument. And if that same fallacy of argument is being perpetrated on a grand scale (and costing American lives!), then it is not OBVIOUS, it is WITHOUT LOGIC and it DOES REQUIRE EXPLANATION.
James7344 almost 16 years ago
This is what you get when you vote for a president you’d have a beer with, instead of for a professional who can do the job.
m.hull almost 16 years ago
I’m with you ccdesan. As am American living abroad for 20 years now. I have been appalled by the destruction of our hard-won reputation built up over the last 300 years. It has been so sad for those of us abroad to witness the debacle on so many fronts that has been the Bush administration. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
ChiehHsia almost 16 years ago
pibfanbrux - For the first 70 years of the last 300, we were still a bunch of little colonies. I assume you are guilty only of a typing error. wink
Durak Premium Member almost 16 years ago
UncaAlby, I’m going to try and be real careful here. I don’t know you and I don’t want to offend you. I just want you to be sure you understand that we are in a pointless war in Iraq and it is a war we caused ourselves. Every life lost in Iraq, ours, theirs and anyone elses, is a precious thing lost. I’m saying this after I served 23 years in the Army. I have a son in the Army. Every male member of my family has been in the military, and many of the women. I have close family in Iraq, all safe, so far, thank God. We have no business there, except to fix what WE messed up. Afghanistan is another matter and I pray God guides whomever we elect tomorrow.
ccdesan’s letter is right dead on and you should echo it, rather than add ‘provisios’ and other ignorant comments. Our country is screwed up and we need to find someone who can fix it. Even if they’re the ones who screwed it up in the first place.
m.hull almost 16 years ago
Roger, but not That one etc. Yes, I am aware that we were not a country then, but we were nonetheless already building up that well-deserved reputation….so I’ll stick with my math ;-) Oh, and btw, my family on both sides were around in said colonies already in the 1640’s which is a bit more than 300 years….
txmystic almost 16 years ago
What is the definition of “victory” in the war on terrorism?
txjeeper almost 16 years ago
You know what astonishes me is that all of these people out there who claim to be “well educated in the issues” seems to forget who really runs this country. It is not President Bush, although he does have some power, but it is the congress who can overrule him who has the real power. And it also baffles me that so many people forgot that during Clinton’s rain of stupidity (yes I am a Republican but I am also a little disenchanted with our Pres.) that the congress was controlled by the republicans. So the prosperity that we had during that time was not Bill’s to claim, but claim he did. Also people need to look back and realize that our economy was doing ok up until the last 2 years until the Dem’s took over congress and really screwed bleeep up.
BirishB almost 16 years ago
txjeeper – Wrong.
The congress does not “run the country” as you suggest. The congress does suggest legislation that the president can either enforce or veto. It’s about checks balances, and no one branch holds any more sway than another (including the judicial branch).
As for the “do-nothing Congress” … well, that’s wrong, too. The current Congress inherited a broken, vastly deregulated financial system and a Commander-in-Chief who redefined abuse of power and wanton use of line-item vetoes. In truth, there’s plenty of blame to go around on all sides, so to say that the democratic congress is to blame misses the point.
Same can be said for your suggestion that the republican congress did all the good during the Clinton era – that is, that statement is also wrong. He is credited on both sides for strengthening the economy in his first term with initiatives he brought to Congress. He based his economic policy largely on fiscal responsibility, strengthening the middle class and balancing the budget (and now that I think about it, that sounds kind of familiar?).
circlexranch almost 16 years ago
What dypak said. He has the stripes (literally and figuratively) and I agree 100%. I was against the war from day 1. I argued for hours with neocon types about WMD and offered a bet of their favorite bottle of liquor when WMDs were found. To date, I’ve not had to pay off yet. Here’s to election day tomorrow and the one over-riding reality. If you don’t VOTE, you can’t KVETCH!
Radical-Knight almost 16 years ago
Do they run out of space? Negative. You can filibuster and rant so long as your fingers and keyboard hold up and there will still be room for more.
Got anything you want to sound off about? This is the politicrap channel for any and all to make their feelings heard.
Everybody has the right to say what they feel, all the Susan001’s and the UncaAlby’s out there, I like hearing what EACH has to say; but neither has the right to tell me how I should think or what I can say.
Please continue.
ChiehHsia almost 16 years ago
pibfanbrux - Back in the 1640’s, “our” reputation consisted largely of intolerance toward one set of my ancestors (i.e. Roman Catholics) and a rather murderous antipathy toward another set of my ancestors (i.e. the Narragansetts and Iroquois). Most of my ancestors were here then, as well, even if some of them were in Quebec and some others were in the Hawaiian islands (which YOUR ancestors later stole from mine, just like they did in New England). However… after that many generations, we’re pretty much all related anyhow and staying mad just puts wrinkles in the forehead.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
BirishB says:
You’re begging the question: No, I’m explaining my statement. Ccdesan said he wants our soldiers home and safe. I said I agree, with the proviso that it doesn’t put the rest of us in harm’s way. It’s a very simple statement. No one has convinced me that pulling our troops home *is* the best course of action that keeps Americans and American interests safe. Yes, I know the liberals believe that Al Queda and their cohorts are all a figment of Bush/Cheney’s imagination, created out of whole cloth to make Halliburton rich. I’m sorry if I don’t quite share that opinion. There are many things wrong with this war, I suspect we’ll have it for a long time, even if Obama wins tomorrow – for one thing, both parties are using it as a vehicle to smuggle Pork. That’s one of the things that’s making it so expensive. Campaign rhetoric aside, I don’t think the Democrats are going to give up that gravy train so easily. But I am not convinced that stopping terrorists and keeping America safe is among those wrong things.
WickedCrazy almost 16 years ago
I said it before and I’ll say it again.Opinions are like A**holes;everyone has one and they all stink! Quit trying to shove all this opinionated garbage down peoples throats, tommorrow go Vote Your Conscience.Whoever wins,wins.If you don’t know who your going to vote for by now…than there’s something wrong.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
Susan001 says:
And I can read between the lines, too! Yes, I know, you see all sorts of hallucinations between the lines. Reading comprehension? You? Don’t make me laugh.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
WickedCrazy says:
Quit trying to shove all this opinionated garbage down peoples throats, Stop reading them.
WickedCrazy almost 16 years ago
UncafriggenknowitallAlby:I’m Actually for the most part on your side.But it’s people like you who make the rest of us conservatives look bad.
tukla_ratte almost 16 years ago
TXJeeper: Please crack open a history book instead of getting all your information from Rush Limbaugh.
“it is the congress who can overrule him who has the real power”
That’s hilarious. Bush has amassed so much power in the executive branch now, he can flagrantly ignore the laws he signs when he feels like it with no repercussions, and frequently does.
Bill Clinton got a balanced budget over the Republicans’ objections by calling their bluff several times and shutting down the government by refusing to sign their budgets until they fixed them. As we have seen in the past quarter century, Republican presidents spend money at a vastly faster rate than Democrats ever do.
“our economy was doing ok up until the last 2 years until the Dem’s took over congress”
No, it wasn’t. Growth has been miserably small the whole time, and Bush has been pouring hundreds of billions into the Iraq sinkhole. This latest disaster is the result of long-standing policies, not something implemented in the past two years. Anyway, if you look at the actual laws being passed, you’ll see that Congress has basically given Bush everything he wants, regardless of which party has been in power there. The Democrats do share some of the blame for what’s happening now, not because Democrats have bad policies but because they have not stood up to the Republicans like Bill Clinton did and shout “NO!” when they want to burn more money and more of our civil liberties.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
doctortoon says:
Dypak - Don’t worry about offending Unc. He loves to be offended. He lives to be offended. That’s why he posts here. That’s not true at all. I tolerate being offended. What I’m looking for is healthy discussion. I don’t get much of that in conservative echo chambers. Just like you don’t get much of it in the liberal echo chambers. But try to remember – just because you’re in an echo chamber and keep hearing your same opinion bouncing back at you all the time, doesn’t mean you’re right. Indeed, if you’re so certain you’re right that you no longer need to explain it to anyone in a rational manner, it’s probably the most important time to take another look and make sure you’re not just another echo.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
Susan001 says:
UncaAlby, you racist pig, You really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
WickedCrazy says:
UncafriggenknowitallAlby:I’m Actually for the most part on your side. But it’s people like you who make the rest of us conservatives look bad. Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME for being so horrible as to express myself in a public forum! And how is it being “mostly on my side” to tell people to stop posting their “opinionated garbage”? Freedom of speech doesn’t imply an obligation to listen – if you don’t want to read people’s opinionated garbage, DON’T READ IT.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
Radical-Knight says:
but neither has the right to tell me how I should think or what I can say. mmmmm – technically speaking – We do have the right to tell you how you should think or what you can say. But you also have the right to just ignore us!
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
txmystic says:
What is the definition of “victory” in the war on terrorism? That is a damned good question.
attyush almost 16 years ago
whoa…the name calling just doesn’t stop. neither in the campaigns nor in our public forums. Actually it’s a lot simpler here since all commenters are anonymous, hiding behind their computer screens. Folks, let us continue having a civil dialogue, discussion and by all means let us disagree with each other…But please stop the name callings.
txmystic almost 16 years ago
UncaAlby says:
txmystic says:
What is the definition of “victory” in the war on terrorism?
That is a damned good question.
Should we not have had an answer before declaring war on terror?
attyush almost 16 years ago
Well, there are really two aspects to this victory. 1 - Millitary victory. This was never really in question. The issue really is how best (after Saddam) US can help support Iraq without bleeding itself to death. However, this millitary victory does not mean a victory on the war on terror. But it kind of sets a precedent that US might attack any country that it deems unsafe…Not the smartest move, but again, Bush alone did not have the power to take it on. It had support from all quarters.
2 - Victory over the war on terror is a difficult task. It requires all like minded countries to come together and take the terrorists out. But countries are also like individuals…so they ask the same question. “Why should I care”. Building a common task force is not only difficult, but next to impossible. So once in a while, you do have to go solo since you are the one who is suffering.
To answer the question now, “Winning the war on terrorism is primarily centered upon winning the struggle of ideas”. Now go figure how to achieve this.
I beat around the bush quite a lot.
BirishB almost 16 years ago
Unca – Don’t apologize for disagreeing. In fact, keep disagreeing. THAT is what makes dialogue worthwhile. And, ironically to some in this forum, discord is what promotes change and moves the dialectic of history.
Terrorists are not a figment of anyone’s imagination. But to the question of ‘why we fight’ we keep getting an answer that ‘because we fight is why we fight.’ That circuitous, empty logic demands an explanation.
So why? WMD? No. Unmitigated pork? Perhaps, but that’s not good enough. The neo-con belief that strong foreign policy and promoting global democracy builds domestic security? People are too afraid to say it, but that seems to be the real reason. And that is bad for America. And in my humble little opinion, pulling back the troops IN A RESPONSIBLE MANNER would do more to promote security than furthering our aggression (for lack of a better term).
We tried it one way, and pre-emptive strike is looking more and more like “The War on Drugs Redux” than a viable solution. Time to try something else. Perhaps what you see as liberal grandstanding is a demand for a solution that causes less harm.
BirishB almost 16 years ago
attyush: ““Winning the war on terrorism is primarily centered upon winning the struggle of ideas””
Are you quoting that from somewhere? ‘cause that’s dead on. Or is that your own. If so … right.
We’re not in a war with clearly identified objectives, and it appears we are in a war of attrition. We’ve (America) tried that before; didn’t work out too well. So how to win the ideological war?
Well, we “fought” an ideological war of fear against Communism for 30-odd years, and it took dialogue to end that. I would suggest that through mutual understanding, we could achieve close to the same now (ach, I just know I’ll get harpooned for that thought!). But you can’t ever “win” a war of idea with sabre rattling.
WickedCrazy almost 16 years ago
UncaA**wipe:That’s all I’m saying cause that’s what you are.
txmystic almost 16 years ago
BirishB says:
Well, we “fought” an ideological war of fear against Communism for 30-odd years, and it took dialogue to end that. I would suggest that through mutual understanding, we could achieve close to the same now
That is what I was getting at…the ideological dialogue has been lost in a barrage of malignments. First and foremost, we must as a nation agree with what we are doing, and in the rush to do something, anything, after 9/11 was too soon for rational debate.
Let us hope it shall begin, because sending our troops to whatever soveriegn nation might harbor a terrorist cell amounts to global whack-a-mole, and my many trips to Chuck E. Cheese’s in my youth has proven it is not the best way to win tickets (or enlist the aid of foreign allies).
attyush almost 16 years ago
@txmystic
While I do not agree with the Iraq war, I fully support the actions taken after 9/11. It was a horrific crime that deserved a strong response, not a dialog. Will it affect innocents? You bet. Did we have other options? None.
txmystic almost 16 years ago
attyush:
And just how much of an “effect” on innocents is acceptable? It is a slippery slope.
And your flat declaration that there was no other option after 9/11 suggests that the current situation is acceptable. Is it?
FRIDABONITA almost 16 years ago
There are three branches in the United States government as established by the Constitution. First, the Legislative branch makes the law. Second, the Executive branch executes the law. Last, the Judicial branch interprets the law. Each branch has an effect on the other.
It would be short sighted and wrong to give blame to one branch alone.
We, The United States of America have been fortunate to have lived with out the threat of terrorism. Also a bit naive. Look outside our boarders, The British Isles lives with terrorism as does Spain, Italy, France, India, Nepal, most Latin American countries, Pakistan, Israel, Palestine and most African nations. We globally have been living with terrorism from with in our boarders and from foreign forces. We were not the first targets nor will we be the last.
We had a golden opportunity with most of the world after 9/11 to forge better diplomatic relations and come up with a global assist on fighting terrorism . There was a chance for open exchange about terrorism and willingness from Russia and China as well as Israel and South Korea to work with us. Instead, we were given information, that has come to light was not factual, that we should take out Saddaam and all our trouble will be gone.
So, sorry but Al-Qaeda does not recognize borders but also does not reside in Iraq.
Al-Qaeda has its origins in the uprising against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Thousands of volunteers from around the Middle East came to Afghanistan as mujahideen, warriors fighting to defend fellow Muslims. In the mid-1980s, Osama bin Laden became the prime financier for an organization that recruited Muslims from mosques around the world. These “Afghan Arab” mujahideen, which numbered in the thousands, were crucial in defeating Soviet forces.
After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, bin Laden returned to his native Saudi Arabia. He founded an organization to help veterans of the Afghan war, many of whom went on to fight elsewhere (including Bosnia) and comprise the basis of al-Qaeda. We, the US of A have given money and arms to Al-Qaeda in the past. They were freedom fighters and we liked that. We didn’t like that they felt we were infringing on their rights and culture, hence 9/11.
As we know, Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, and as tyrannical as Sadaam was, he had nothing to do with the attack of 9/11.
So, let’s go after bin Laden and crew. It would be very difficult for the US to start causing any problems with Saudi Arabia. We need their oil and have ties that go back in our nations history both Rep. and Dem.
So, IF we are really going to do something about the war on terrorism let’s take some geography lessons, get straight facts and be willing to sever our ties with OPEC.
The name calling and pointing fingers is not going to make us a stronger better nation. We are all part of this problem and need to be active in the solutions.
I was just a twinkle in my moms eye when JFK asked: “Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.”
This administration along with the next dozen isn’t going to fix our problems; we are going to fix our country, there is no other way.
What can I do today to make my home, work place, community a better place?
Did I tell my children something positive, did I tell them that I love them, that I am proud of their accomplishments?
Have I thanked my partner, my colleague, my child’s teacher, a neighbor, a friend for their time, effort or understanding
We need to get it together and be strong as one.
United we stand, divided we fall.margueritem almost 16 years ago
Amen, Frida, AMEN! So well put.
UncaAlby almost 16 years ago
txmystic says:
Should we not have had an answer [to how to win] before declaring war on terror? Unfortunately, we DID have an answer, or we THOUGHT we did, and turned out to be the wrong question. Stateless terrorism is a relatively new phenomenon in foreign affairs. Our history is filled with contentious struggles, sometimes violent, sometimes not, with other nations. We won the Cold War with the Soviet Union in part because they knew we could make their home address radioactive. You can’t make that threat against stateless terrorists who can hide anywhere, including within your own borders. I was against going into Iraq, both times. I was against going into Afghanistan, which many of our liberal buddies were for. I was against the military action in Kosovo, which our liberal buddies were just thrilled about. BUT – now that we are THERE, I think it would be a mistake at this juncture to just cut and run. Make no mistake – American liberals think the struggle in Iraq is pointless – Al Queda does not.
sjscorp9a almost 16 years ago
all of this vitriol makes me sad. i agree with uncaalby: healthy discussion is important, and a great way to get insights is by discussing issues with others who hold different views from your own. i wish fewer people viewed discussions as personal attacks.
sjscorp9a almost 16 years ago
unca–i would agree that al queda does not feel that our presence in iraq is pointless. i think that al quida needs our presence there to continue its strategy of spreading ill-will towards america, increasing their recruitment, and bankrupting america. i think that the best way to protect our country at this juncture is to: reduce american ill-will in the middle east by starting to pull out of iraq and stopping all this negative and offensive rhetoric. i think we need to show more respect for muslims, and that will go a long way towards reducing the al queda influence in the region. i think that we would do better to marshall our resources to increase our intelligence gathering and deplomatic efforts, instead of squandering our soldiers, money, and equipment fighting a guerilla war. why do you feel it would be better to stay?
FRIDABONITA almost 16 years ago
Unc,
Pointing your finger is not a solution nor does it promote one.
The Old Wolf almost 16 years ago
Merciful mother of Mogg, I had no idea my Christmas list would unleash such a firestorm of ɹɐƃәu!ʌ puɐ ss!d. Show some dignity, folks. We can have a world where everyone wins, but how can we expect our elected officials to act with civility and restraint when we - the ones who put them into their seats - can’t do so first? Please remember that whoever wins this election, the popular vote will indicate that a large percentage of our nation’s citizens voted for someone else, and the winners will ignore that at their peril. Clinton - in my opinion - was a shrewd politician and a capable administrator, but an amoral human being. The thing that irked me the most about his administration - besides the obvious event which sullied the dignity of the oval office - was the attitude towards others who didn’t think as they did. “It’s the Economy, Stupid” was the most demeaning political slogan I have ever heard from a national platform. Once the Clintonites were elected, they acted with total disdain towards the “other half” of the American people. It was almost as if they were saying, “We’re in power now, so you conservatives can go ʍǝɹɔs yourselves.” My wish is for our soldiers to be home with their families, and out of harm’s way. I have no idea how that’s going to happen, but I don’t advocate a “cut and run” strategy. I hate this war, I hate everything about it, I hate the lies and misrepresentations that got us into it, but UncaAlby is only making the point that despite all of those things, our nation still faces threats against which we must have adequate protection. I saw nothing in his proviso to justify the kind of personal attacks which were generated. It’s possible to disagree without being disagreeable. To my chagrin, the recent campaign would seem to belie that, but my belief in civility remains unshaken. I expect better from people than I see here, but I’m also open to the possibility that I’m not going to get it.
FRIDABONITA almost 16 years ago
CCd,
What kind of statement is this?
*Yes, I know the liberals believe that Al Queda and their cohorts are all a figment of Bush/Cheney’s imagination, created out of whole cloth to make Halliburton rich. I’m sorry if I don’t quite share that opinion. *
or
Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME for being so horrible as to express myself in a public forum!
or
Make no mistake – American liberals think the struggle in Iraq is pointless – Al Queda does not.
Got to love those blatant anti-liberal statements that are confrontational and posted on a forum of a liberal based comic strip.
So, go ahead and stand up for Unc but don’t judge anyone else here for calling him out on his own ‘crap.’
The Old Wolf almost 16 years ago
Fridakins, I participate in a listserv for translators and interpreters - messages are shared via email. You’d think the main topic would be translation and interpretation, but instead the list has been hijacked by about 8 people that have engaged in the most infantile political war of words, lasting years. The rest of us stick around because at need, it’s a useful tool. My weapon of choice over there is the “DEL” key. The equivalent here in on this forum would be the “Ignore” button. If someone - anyone - voices an opinion you disagree with, you’re always at choice. You can respond, which usually invites point/counterpoint/escalation - or you can bend with the wind and let controversy flow past you. Remember what we discussed over at Pib about how Amos and Edda needed to listen to each other without rebuttal? Listening by being with, and actually trying to understand what the other person is saying? Two people who do that - I don’t care what their opinions are - can have a civilized, enlightening and mutually edifying exchange. It’s about respect, nothing more. If one side - either side - moves to a place of “I’m just waiting for you to take a breath so I can make my point”, communication is over, and the best thing to do is back out. Every moment is a choice - every choice has prices and benefits. If you “call someone on their crap”, you’re making a choice that serves you in some ways and costs you in some ways. It’s up to you to decide which side of the equation wins out. In this case, UncaAlby is only the “Teacher in the Moment”. It’s not my place to defend or rebut his ideas or his communication style. I only saw this “discussion” devolve into a playground sand-throwing session, and suggested that there are better ways to conduct a debate. Vieux Loup a parlé.
txmystic almost 16 years ago
UncaAlby says:
BUT – now that we are THERE, I think it would be a mistake at this juncture to just cut and run.
What can further American intervention accomplish? What is the exit strategy now? How long before we are no longer “cutting and running”, and don’t the terrorists have to merely wait one day longer than that?
Radical-Knight almost 16 years ago
ccdesan:
Well phrased and said, I like your view and share your opinions. You can speak for me anytime.