Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for November 04, 2008

GT is so good with words.

(carryover from 11/3/08)

UncaAlby says:

BUT – now that we are THERE, I think it would be a mistake at this juncture to just cut and run.

What can further American intervention accomplish? What is the exit strategy now? How long before we are no longer “cutting and running”, and don’t the terrorists have to merely wait one day longer than that?

Frida, txmystic and ccdesan: I tried to comment to each of you about my appreciation for what especially you and others said here over the last few days and all I can say here is thanks for your views, calm resolve and patience with those who leap to retaliate when no offense was intended. Thanks

Dan

Nicely said Radical-Knight. A cartoon writer’s intention is obviously for the reader to conclude. Hard not to inject our point of view in the process. Keep the toons coming GT - it helps us think.

I don’t think we should cut and run. I think we should turn around very deliberately, sbleeepe the bleeep off the soles of our shoes in a very obvious manner, pack up all our “toys”, and leave in a huff without saying a word.

Just got home from the polls. We live in a VERY small county, total population around 10K. Our voting technology has a ballot counter and 67 had voted in the first 10 minutes. That was just one polling place and didn’t include advance voting. Turnout is expected to be 70 - 75%. Even though I don’t agree with how my county will likely break for the prez, I’m still proud of our little rural community.

okay… what is a word of six letters, beginning with “s”, which means to remove something from a surface through the use of friction? “My little brother fell and —–ed his knee.”

second word… word of four letters, beginning with “c”, being a synonym for “filthy substance”.

circlexranch - agreed. There was a line around the corner at my polling place when I got there at 6:30 a.m., and it was still just as long when I was leaving at about 7:15. Usually in past elections, it’s been just the poll workers and 4-5 voters at a time.

Bad Gweedo. Bad, bad, BAD Gweedo.

And how come it didn’t bleeep yours?

Gweedo & Rorger

You two should go on the road! You are with out a doubt the new Ren and Stimpy!

Thanks for the laughs on the way to the shower.

; )

Good change vs bad change = a matter a perspective. I would suggest that the next 4 years will tell us whether change was good or bad. But now that I think about it, perhaps any change is a good change for the reason of perspective alone.

As an aside, I sincerely hope that all the involvement I have witnessed during this cycle does not EVER go away. Keep disagreeing everyone (and yes, do so in a reasoned tone) because our founding fathers may not have envisioned Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals, and they may not have spoken about every issue we talk about today, but they did universally believe in the marketplace of ideas.

Vote. For Democracy.

Just had to comment about scraping the soles of our shoes and leaving. I totally agree with leaving asap, but to show our soles (cultural bleepu) would be a colossal insult to a people that we invaded illegally. We should quietly gather our baseballs/bats and other gear, say “sorry” and go home from Iraq. It’s the Taliban that needed/needs to be punished. So glad to Vote today!

BirishB:

Very well said.

Nice save, Zeigler.

Radical Knight

Thanx

sabresoo - Excellent point, and I accept the correction (although I was indeed aware of the overt insult contained in “shaking the dust from our feet”).

However, I can’t help but wonder how much longer we should stay even in Afghanistan while so many of the Afghan people remain so unwilling openly to resist the Taliban? At some point it has to become their fight.

Thank God someone found a clever way to tell this joke. As a black man I’ve encountered glances from Caucasians all day assuming who I voted for because of the color of my skin rather than my politics. I zagged and voted for the wieght of my wallet.

RR - so, we have to assume, based on sheer economics, you joined us in trying to vote the Republicans out of office?

I think that it’s great that you guy’s are lined up around the block to vote. We spent $300 million up here on an election that changed nothing. You literally have the power to change America, and by extension, the world, in the palm of your hand. For so many years, America has been preaching to the rest of the world about the wonders of democracy, and had a really pathetic voter turnout. To me, I think that it’s wonderful that you guy’s can really “walk the walk” instead of just “talking the talk”. All that it took was a senior citizen and a man who is half African-American. If you haven’t voted, get out there. It’s only every four years. If you can wait in line for a Boxing Day sale, voting for your future should be worth hitting the street. No matter who becomes President, the real winners are you guy’s, for being involved in the process. One way or the other “a change is gonna come”

(carryover from 11/3/08) attyush says: While I do not agree with the Iraq war, I fully support the actions taken after 9/11. It was a horrific crime that deserved a strong response, not a dialog. Will it affect innocents? You bet. Did we have other options? None.   On the contrary we had lots of options.   First and foremost would have been to examine WHY the US is hated so much! Could it be because of all the arrogant exploitation to 3rd world countries we have done over the past 50 - 100 years? Or the covert meddling with other governments through assassinations and funding puppet dictators/politicians?   If we had sown the seeds of peace instead of the seeds of war, how much better off would we be now? Had we spent $10 billion to fund 2 or 3 peace centers in the troubled areas it would have been far cheaper and would have resulted in far better results than the $500 billion we have spent seeking revenge.   After 9/11 we had the world’s sympathy and empathy. We had a wonderful opportunity for creating an entirely new paradigm for international relations and seeking solutions. But it required a true leader. It requires a true leader to overcome a knee-jerk reaction of seeking revenge. It requires a true leader to look for and suggest that there were other responses. It require a true leader to inspire a country to see that violence only begets more long term violence. Instead it was completely wasted by a president with a ludicrous frat-boy/cowboy mentality hell-bent on going out and kicking-a**! I suppose that’s what you expect from someone who said even before he was elected that he knew nothing about foreign policy.   Even if we “won” the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan today we would be far less secure than and have far more “terrorists” seeking our destruction than 7 years ago.

(carryover from 11/3/08) Susan001 says: The only “positive” aspect of this damned war and occupation is that it has made Bush/Cheney/Halliburton wealthy.   Yes. And THAT was the true agenda of this war.

skulker said:”First and foremost would have been to examine WHY the US is hated so much!”

agreed.

but george w. did say something quite prudent once, “we cannot allow terrorists to rule the world”

which is one of the best arguments for voting against four more years of bush/mccain.

I too am really pleased with the calmness on here today…it’s SUCH a releif! And just for the record, I’m over 50, white, born and raised in Geogia, and ex-law enforcement… and I voted Obama two weeks ago. Ironic thing is; most of my aquaintances just ASSUME I voted McCain. Go figure. Sure wish there were a whole lot more calm, good natured discussion like this.

Hey, where’s UncaAlby today? No doubt off videotaping suspected fraudulent voters at some polling place that has bilingual ballots…

We are calm because we follow and agree with each others line of thinking.

It would be wonderful if we could remain so centered when a pro-current administration comments here.

Whatever my personal feelings are re: the GOP, and believe me, I have some, I also have some strong feelings about the Democratic party as well. There needs to be some unity here or we are not going to get any where.

This war, more than any other event in this administrations eight years, has polarized our country. This is not new, it happened when we went into Vietnam and we’re still reeling from the effects.

How are these soldiers going to integrate back into society?

How are we going to project a better, kinder nation?

How/who is we going to pay for this war?

I grew up in a household of pacifists and do not believe in aggression. The poster that hung on the fridge:

War is not healthy for children and other living things

I believe that to be true but I know we need to take care of those who were fighting for our safety whether it was real or not.

@Frida: I am a little disappointed with your comments. We don’t HAVE to follow and agree with each other just so that there is peace. All of us should have the courage and capability to think for ourselves. We can be united despite our differences…and that is what should be the hallmark of a mature society.

@Skulker: You could endlessly argue that peace is the best way since violence only begets violence, but if nothing was done at the time, terrorists would treat US as spineless. You can look at countries like India that are bombed everyday by terrorists but the spineless government plays the pacifist tune. They have not been able to prosecute a single person so far connected to the last 7 years of bombing. At times, violence, however horrific, is the right response.

I know I would regret my comments on this board…but I firmly believe a healthy dialogue where everyone doesn’t have to agree with everyone else is the signs of maturity.

New “Indecision 2008” Mobile Wallpapers from GoComics: http://mobile.gocomics.com/media/listing/category/153

Clear speech/writing is directly indicative of clear thought. It is a hallmark of nearly all of the posts/posters here, and on Pibgorn (in spite of the couch/parlor) - which is appreciated by one and all, as is often expressed. Such clarity is not as well taught in our schools as it at one time was, largely because we are now into the third or fourth generation of teachers who were, themselves, not well taught. ‘Feeling’ has replaced ‘thinking’ as a basis for expression, and why is far too long a tale for this forum, but it goes back to at least 350 a.d. when the Rational Ideal of Ellada began to be eroded.

The educated mind has been defined as one capable of holding two, or more, contending ideas at the same time, in order to compare them. It is a balancing act, but also the source of some of the most stimulating mental juggling it is possible to engage in - there’s ample evidence of that here, too. Mr. Trudeau seems to try to make us do that - bravo! Unfortunately, the active, competitive leader’s ‘mind’ is frequently too focussed, too ‘tunnel vision’ oriented to permit it.

attyush,

Please read all of my comment

It would be wonderful if we could remain so centered when a pro-current administration comments here.

We need open dialogue and not mud slinging. That was the point of my comment. It is easy to pat each other on the back when we all are in agreement, but what will make us better humans and a stronger community IS open discourse. This doesn’t mean, you listen to my point of view and then I listen to yours. It means we ask questions and try to find commonality. We might not ever agree on certain issues but we need to be able to hear each others side. We also need to speak in a language which isn’t full of defensiveness and sarcasm.

As to your remark about being spineless:

ter⋅ror⋅ism  –noun

the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

I would like to look at the first definition. Someone, group or faction who uses violence to coerce or intimidate for political reasons.

Who were they trying to intimidate and for what political purpose on 9/11?

I think most of us agree that those responsible for the atrocity do not reside in Iraq nor did the government of Iraq and it’s peoples have anything to do with the attack on 9/11.

So, those terrorists who did not directly die on that day are still out there and what have we shown them as a nation? We struck at a nation not involved in the affair and what? What can they possibly think of us? Does this show spine?

We are no farther along in retaliating then the day it happened.

Anyone know, or have access to a translator for what ‘al-qaeda’ actually means?

Eug,

the term ”Al Qaeda” means “the base” or “foundation” in Arabic, it originally referred to an Afghan operational base for the mujahideen during the Soviet occupation in the ’80s.

Burg2: Thank you.

Frida: hm - does that suggest a relatively recent etymology? Words have been known to have their applications, and hence meanings, change(d).

Eugeno,

From an on line dictionary:

[Arabic al-q’ida, the base : al-, the + q’ida, foundation, base, feminine participle of qa’ada, to sit.]

It would seem that the group took the name and used it as their “motto” for lack of a better term.

It is in away like many terms that start out with regular meanings and usage but are picked up and then given new meanings with whom ever uses them.

Example:

Grand old party (GOP) has been around long before the Republicans adopted it as theirs.

Many people assume that blacks vote for Obama.

No regrets.

Your Uncle Toby would be proud of that “out” Zeigler.