Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for June 21, 2009

Oops…

No great loss. I doubt she’d have anything intelligent to say, anyway.

Uh, not QUITE so cut and dried, Mark. We have a long history of justifying things done ‘in our national interest’. We may have prosecuted Japanese waterboarders, but we let a lot of bigger fish go free because they had info we needed to use against Russia. We cut deals with many, including the truly monstrous Shiro Ishii, because we wanted his germ warfare research and expertise. Because of this, there were far few executions in Toyko than in Nuremberg, even though there just as many war criminals.

We dropped our germ warfare program in the 1970’s during Nixon’s admin because the government realized the public would perceive it as unAmerican and dastardly to drop anthrax and other diseases on our enemies - how sad that we’ve actually lost that attitude when it comes to waterboarding and torture in general.

Don’t forget psychological torture. Let’s hear it for the internment camps!

Obama is sinking this nation daily but you keep on focusing on Bush. Two years from now these hacks will keep saying “failed policies of the Bush Administration” and “we inherited from the previous administration”. But to these guys, Obama is infallible. To quote Ralph Peters, “We now have a president with Jimmy Carter’s naivete, Richard Nixon’s distaste for laws, Lyndon Johnson’s commitment to the wrong war, and Bill Clinton’s moral fecklessness.” But they’ll blame Bush for everything anyway.

Well, let’s face it - we’re electing people who have shown in the past that they are not exactly fit to be POTUS. Heck, we’re not choosing people in the PRIMARIES that are fit to be President. Truman and Eisenhower were probably the last people from their respective parties that actually weren’t a detriment to the office in some way, shape, or form. Since then, both sides have made MAJOR mistakes - Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Iranian hostages, Iran-Contra, the 1990 Recession, NAFTA and a laissez-faire second term, Bush Junior in general, and now Obama = Clinton Administration 1.8.5.3.4.

Still, yeah, way to go there, dude - totally trash the administration of which your guest was a part. That might work on a show like Howard Stern, but he ain’t Howard Stern.

Wizman, I suppose only time will tell as to where Obama ends up taking us, but I think we’re pretty much sunk as it is. If Obama turns out to be just as evil and disastrous as many conservatives fear, then it’s too bad they turned a blind eye, again and again, to the previous administration’s mistakes and crimes, and claim to want an OBVIOUS, unquestioned monster/idiot like Rush Limbaugh to be in control of the party - I mean, the democrats could almost have chosen Jabba the Hutt at this point, and they’d still look good compared to the previous/ current republican leadership! They have handed all moral authority to the liberals on a silver platter, deserved or not. I realize it’s too late to say so now, but people who are disappointed that Obama won and is getting a blank check should have demanded more from their leaders and voted differently for the last 8 years. Only Doonesbury could get away with soapboxing so shamelessly and still manage to seem self-depricating and funny instead of preachy (at least to this reader). Kudos!

I know torture is ethically wrong. I know that it is below human standards. I also know many readers here served during the Viet Nam era and are aware of many American soldiers being tortured in inconcievable ways. Also Ethical standards are a stand alone body of thoughts when it comes to war. How do we balance it all. THERE SIMPLY HAS TO BE NO MORE WAR!!!

PS Mojitobaby is not wrong about the US (or certain divisions of our government, anyway) authorizing legally/morally questionable (to put it kindly) tactics in the interests of national security BEFORE the last 8 years. That in no way vindicates anyone who justifies torture, or makes anyone who condemns torture any less right. There are precedents for all kinds of abominable behavior - it’s still wrong, no matter how accustomed we become to it.

Wizman - Peters recently wrote an essay in the Journal of International Security Affairs suggesting that in the future, the military should attack and kill “the partisan media”. Are you sure he’s someone you want to cite as an authority on the American way?

And we keep blaming Bush? Oh, please. I clearly recall letters to the editor appearing in our local newspaper in late 2003, blaming Bill Clinton’s reductions in force for the problems we were already having in Iraq. Whatever we liberals know about transferring blame and denying responsibilty we learned at the feet of the neo-con masters, starting with the I-can’t-think-of any-mistakes-I made Idiot Prince.

I fin d it significant that there is no comment rebutting this Cartoon. Once again, Trudeau has “hit the nail on the head” and told it like should be told.

If waterboarding is not torture, why do police departments in the United States not use it on ordinary, run-of-the-mill thugs and murderers to obtain information? If waterboarding is not torture, why does John McCain, who was tortured, say that it is? If waterboarding is not torture, why do U.S. Army regulations forbid it as being torture? If waterboarding is not torture, would you mind if it was practiced on you? If waterboarding is not torture, would it be all right if other countries practiced it on American citizens? If “You Don’t Know Dick” Cheney is so passionate about protecting the United States, why did he repeatedly decline opportunities to do so when a war was handy during his youth? But that’s another question.

My two cents: may not be logical at times. When is it fair to deviate from our ethical principles? Let’s go back to the trail of tears and manifest destiny. Then there was that confederate POW camp that inspired a movie. Well, we firebombed cities in Germany and Japan without remorse of how many civilians suffered. Then we detonated two ultimate fire-bombs to save american lives. Was this ethical? Probably not.

We love to watch fictionalized anti-hero routines where the torture suspects and save the day. I really doubt that works so well in reality. Can we interrogate suspects humanely? probably so. Now recall that these are suspects not actually convicted terrorists. If you do some research you will find out that some of these guys were picked up by bounty hunters and had trumped up charges.

Ok the finale. We take pride in being better than others but swear that we will fight like cornered rats. But until that time comes, we should not resort to unethical choices, lest that pave the way for attacks on our civil liberties. Of course you will say: that can never happen here. Wrong. A sheriff and his deputies were convicted in Texas for waterboarding perps. Is it an isolated instance. Hardly. There, rambling at points but it’s just my opinion.

Let’s see…

Stock market is up, housing starting to show signs of recovery, secret CIA prisons in Europe closed, Gitmo on the way to closing, GM go into bankruptcy smoothly (versus shutting down quickly and shedding 2 million jobs), and yet there’s always somebody (led by Gingrich) to say that Obama’s failing. What a hoot!

P.S. - there haven’t been any dastardly terrorist attacks since Jan 20th, have there?

Your stimulus package has made its Mark. But first year in office does not necessarily mean the last. We must wait till the fat lady sings or falls over.

Wizman: As far as many of us are concerned, we’ve come out of the dark and into the light. The dark of those eight years of “King George” and his merry band. It appears the rule of law (and the Bill of Rights) have returned, so whether Obama’s policies are brilliant or ridiculous, I believe we are all safer; safer in our own homes. I also remember the shape the country was in at the end of the Clinton administration - peace, prosperity, and a federal surplus - and what it was like when Bush left office. Yes, Obama has inherited a real mess, and I wish him all the luck in the world - I would be crazy not to……

It’s a simple equation:

Waterboarding is torture. Torture is a war crime. Cheney has admitted he authorized the use of waterboarding, adding that Bush knew about it and approved of it. Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes.

So, where are the trials?

Wizman, since Obama’s White House didn’t greenlight torture, what he’s doing to “sink” the counytry is completely irrelevant here, unless you actually think you can link torture to economic policies. Nice diversionary tactic, tho - but you threw it out there because you don’t really have a defense for the indefensible.

Terrorists used to routinely claim that they’d been tortured by the US and when we flat-out denied it to the world we actually used to believed - it looked like more fanatical hyperbole on their part because there were some things America just didn’t do, right?. Welcome to a reality where we’re no better than the unethical ‘other side” - the beheading, poison gas and acid bath-using other side. How soon will it be before we completely become what we fight against? America was also attacked by the Japanese in ‘41 - but I guarantee that no matter how much we loathed that enemy during WWII, the population here would have recoiled in disgust if they’d found out we tortured anyone, because we’were the “good guys” – and good guys don’t do that sort of thing.

wizman, when the US was attacked on 9/11 there was an amazing outpouring of sympathy and support for us the world over. If the same thing happened today, do you think the reaction would be the same – or would we just get three half-used candles and a “sorry for your loss”?

If we’ve completely lost the ability to judge ourselves and our actions objectively, I can assure you no one else has.

Hey Pete. Be sure to reiterate that last part when Homeland Security swat teams come through your door. When will you people ever learn? They’re both on the same side and it’s sure not ours. Neo-cons, Neo-facists. Keep the people polarized so they don’t see what’s really going on.

I see signs of nothing but improvements under Obama…so where’s the disaster in the making? I’m disappointed in a few of his actions not going far enough, having to make political concessions, but that’s reality. The repugs will find any excuse to trash the new liberal leader, but that’s just politics - people thinking with their ideology instead of their brains. Had more than enough of that with the Bushies - who clearly, obviously and definitely should be on trial for war-crimes. But that would “look bad” or something, I guess. Putting criminals on trial is a good thing unless they bleeep near ruined the country, in which case I guess they get a pass. Sometimes reality sucks.

LOL - And Condi’s one of the saner members of that misadministration. Can’t wait to hear from Rummy.

NotfromIceland, I remember d. cheneys famous statement: “I have too many important things to accomplish, to be drafted”. This, before he slipped in to the university of wyoming & then his wife became pregnant, to supply him with a deferment.

Waterboarding is NOT TORTURE! It is simply sensory deprivation. The subject of the technique walks away completely intact and uninjured. The instigator walks away with actionable intelligence.

What’s the #@¢king problem here??????????

How could any circumstances be more dire? In 1945, a single individual didn’t have the capability of killing a million people with a suitcase sized device.

Does that capability justify torture (however we choose to define it)? That’s harder to say.

But it’s definitely sticking with the big lie to pretend that the circumstances in 2009 are the same as the circumstances were in 1945.

reinharden

And the difference between water boarding a terrorist and sucking out the brains of a partially born baby is?