Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for July 12, 2010

GT must have prepared this strip to mark the big transition, but then gotten tired of waiting for Iraq to form a government. Its Parliament, elected in March, finally convened on 14 June but after a month now still hasn’t been able to fill any of Iraq’s chief ministries.

From this initial sequence of panels, I suspect GT is going to pretend that this withdrawal parallels our leaving Vietnam forty years ago so that he can dodge the more interesting question of what our invasion has achieved politically. But maybe he’ll surprise us, despite his advancing years, with a fresh analysis.

Well, Joe, at least we have your fresh analysis. I expect more like it from those who keep saying we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq. Political debate seizes upon what is or will be, not upon what should have been but never was.

“We didn’t lose in the Vietnam Conflict because we were not officially at war with any country.”

I’m sure this technicality makes you feel much better about yourself.

If you get beat up by someone, do you say “well I didn’t lose because I never officially challenged you to a fight?”

Joe, whether you think we won or lost in Vietnam, go take a look at The Wall sometime. And then tell me if anyone won. There are a lot of names there, and some of them were friends of mine.

Joe-Allen “Joe” Doty said, “We didn’t lose in the Vietnam Conflict because we were not officially at war with any country.”

Then why DID we lose in the Vietnam Conflict?

We may not be at war WITH Afghanistan, after the fall of the Taliban and installation of the new government, But we ARE at war IN Afghanistan.

I got the impression that Joe was being ironic.

EDIT irony, not sarcasm (always get them mixed up).

You’re a good man, Sheik.

Yerbouti, I feel the same way. Everyone who can should visit the Vietnam War memorial on the mall in D.C. My cousin’s name is on it. It is a great memorial, and I wish that more Americans had learned its lessons & not invaded Afghanistan & Iraq.

Good points, Rikulau.

I look forward to where this week of DOONESBURY in Iraq goes. I look forward to President Obama’s withdrawing all troops from Iraq. Of course, I look forward to the trials of G.W. Bush & Dick Cheney, and they are not going to happen.

50,000 Dead in Vietnam. 100,000 wounded. Read “The March of Folly” by Barbara Tuchman

You’ve heard of “Good Night Moon”

Have you heard of “Good Night Bush?” It is a parody and absolutely wonderful.

Okay, so we didn’t lose the Vietnam war, we just lost the conflict. I guess we didn’t win in Korea, either, since it was a “Police Action.”

I supported the fight in Afghanistan, but 9 years is entirely too long to occupy a country without accomplishing your immediate objective. The withdrawal from both places is in order. We will have other wars to fight.

It’s interesting that our “loss” in Vietnam resulted in the halt of Red Chinese expansion in the area of the world, along with the formation of new alliances that broke the back of previous Soviet/Chinese shared goals. For those who say their sacrifice in Vietnam was a waste, I strongly disagree, as I would similarly say to those who served in Iraq. If you’ve contributed to a worls where your grandchildren can play in peace and freedom, you’ve accomplished something.

Good to see Ray today. Haven’t seen him around the strip for a while.

You’re correct, algurka. We didn’t win in Korea. We simply kept the border between the Koreas intact after the Chinese decided they wanted a little more breathing room.

When North Korean nuclear components start showing up in the hands of terrorists, we may sinecerly regret not winning in Korea.

Nemesys,,, Those that fought in Korea can be extra proud of their service. They stopped the North Koreans from taking over the entire peninsula, They brought more Koreans out of the tyranny of Communism and helped make one of the best economies in the world. The Chinese had one major goal, to protect their border. Hindsight says that negotiation when the North Korean army was backed into a corner might have ended with a united Korea today. Macarthur was wrong on that one. “The Chinese will not enter into the war.”

By the way, “War” is wherever men are dying and killing each other in the name of some cause.

Democrats got us in Vietnam Republicans got us out Unfortunately 58,000 didn’t get out Did we win? Is Vietnam one of the fastest growing capitalist nations?

I’m glad our Nobel Peace Price winner Democrat (see Vietnam) Prez set a timetable (always a smart move in war. tell your enemy your plans) in the same same speech where he said “Oh yeah, almost forgot. I’m sending in 30,000 more of your husbands, sons, and brothers to a war I claim has no purpose. Blame it on the guy before me.” No Bay of Tomkin? Why, if we’re leaving?

Prez stands for 1st amendment. Fired the General who spoke up. Hire the guy who won in Iraq. We didn’t win?

The last few posts—-particularly aircraft and Lewreader—-are perfect specimens of an incapacity for political reality. People with this disability take out their frustrations on those whom we’ve elected to deal with political reality.

GT understands this, and he certainly expresses sympathy for those immediately affected by the political reality (our soldiers). But sometimes he seems to pander to the frustrations of the politically inarticulate (the abovementioned posters). Let’s see how he develops this arc on the great withdrawal.

(Personally and apart from politics, I’m with ricmac about the damned camel-jockeys. I wish President Bush had sent them to Guantanamo on 9/12, instead of shutting down our airspace to let them all sneak back to Arabia, where they continued to bribe al-Qaeda with protection money. And—-as long as we’re speaking in this nonpolitical, “should-have” vein—-Bush had no choice but to go after the Arabs. He just went after the wrong Arabs, calculating that a barrel in hand was worth fifty in the ground.)

In what way, Nemesys, did the U.S. war in Vietnam “result in the halt of Red Chinese [sic] expansion”? Before Nixon & Ford ended the war, Nixon had already begun recognizing China. China’s sphere of influence is greater today than it was in 1972. The Vietnam War was an awful bloody waste, of course. Bush-Dick’s invasions & occupations of Afghanistan & Iraq, the same. None of these military actions was justified. They were performed by military & business interests concerned with money & power & using working-class & disadvantaged men & women as pawns.

The Korean War is another imperialistic mess. Korea ought to be one country, but the world’s two remaining superpowers, China & the U.S., will not let that happen. Instead, we have a thriving but imperiled south & a starving, oppressed north.

Lew, do not start typing until you have something coherent to say. Did you take your government-supplied medications this morning? Republicans got us into Vietnam & got us out, but not without a ton of delay & hundreds of thousands dead. Check your history.

I note, by the by, Lew, that you malign President Obama with every breath. Do you really want a return of Bush-Dick? What, exactly, did Bush-Dick & the Republicans do for eight years that you want them returned?

Was Vietnam for nothing? Absolutely not. One purpose of a war is to give us peace, at least for a little while. Did the Vietnam “war” do this? Absolutely!!! It kept us out of El Salvador where the rebels were creating havoc. Oliver North sold his soul for the president to get us into that war, but the American people were so sick of war, they would not allow us to join another. And since you are not a president unless you are a war president, we bombed Grenada. WOW!

Justice22 is entirely correct about MacArthur (his ego overpowered strategy)

Regarding Viet Nam (less we forget) the helicopter scene on the embassy roof was AFTER we declared victory and had already withdrawn troops. I do hope the story in Afghanistan will be better.

BrianCrook, Kennedy and Johnson drew a line in the sand in Vietnam that sent a clear message to Beijing that their Soviet-style expansion project wasn’t going to be tolerated in a Neville Chamberlain-ish way. Despite profound ideological differences, Nixon understood this and picked up where Johnson left off. Win or lose, that was the message sent, and that’s why the Chinese came to the table (as Spock’s ancient Vulcan wisdom goes, “Only Nixon could go to China). Yes, it was messy and ugly, and I believe that the world we live has been profoundly changed as a result.

Obama has played the role of Nixon, keeping up and even escalating the present conflicts because he even knows the world would suck even more if he buried his head in the sand as you advocate. It’s simplisticly easy for you to pretend that the world would be a better place without these interventions, but that’s pure fantasy on your part. It’s interesting that a host of informed presidents with as diverse backgrounds as Bush, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Obama have consistantly disagreed with you.

You simply don’t know how things would have turned out without US intervention in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, and neither do I. However, if the entire Far East was a Chinese province, would you blame Kennedy for not getting involved? You probably would, although you might personally like that idea. But. win or lose, the US takes a stand based upon its principles and interests, and I believe that the world is a better place as a result.

Scary to think of the various conflicts as just part of a 20 year cycle for the U.S. to take part in. However, Dwight Eisenhower did warn us of the “military industrial complex” while he was on his way out of the White House. Eisenhower couldn’t have known how prophetic his statement was at that time. We need more owls, less hawks vs. doves perhaps.

Umm, OT here, but is that MSG Ray? He grew some hair? How long has he been deployed now? five years?

Thanks, jollyjack, for bringing us back to GT’s strip by introducing a real political topic: “what is or will be” in Afghanistan (instead of Iraq; but GT treats the two situations almost as if they were politically interchangeable).

At first glance, one sees a historical parallel with Truman = Obama and the egotistic MacArthur = McChrystal.

But there’s a difference. MacArthur wanted recklessly to take on the entire Red Chinese Army, whereas McChrystal was evidently happy to work with the corrupt government of Karzai.

Truman fired MacArthur in order to achieve an eventual truce in Korea.

Obama fired McChrystal to replace him with Petraeus, who’s better able to hold Karzai in check.

So far, Afghanistan looks more like a repeat of Vietnam than of Korea. And unless we can locate and nurture the embryo of democratic—-or even tribal—-self-government in Afghanistan, that war is more likely to end as Vietnam did than as Iraq is doing.

I don’t think GT, or anybody else who is old enough to have lived through both wars, would compare Iraq with Vietnam. Only a naive pacifist would confuse the two wars (or any two wars—-they’re all evil, and if we ignore evil maybe it will go away).

And since you are not a president unless you are a war president, we bombed Grenada

A ‘war’ that the US was in at the start of and managed all on its own - wow indeed. Shouldn’t the job have been done properly and its Head of State hunted down and shot?

Hey, @Joe-Allen “Joe” Doty… Don’t you knoe that Declarations of War are just soooooo 20th century?

Harold Conway Doss, Jr 21, LCPL USMC, KIA 5 October 1967.

William Stanley “Butch” Geary, 23 2LT USMC, KIA 5 April 1969.

“Hand, salute.” “Ready, two.”

Since Grenada is mentioned, we went there to stop Cuba from taking it over, not knowing that it was actually a United Kingdom possession with only a dozen Cuban engineers who were building an airport to promote tourism to help the poor economy. President Reagan looked bad after the Beirut barracks bombing, so he diverted troops on their way to Lebanon to invade an allie’s possession to help his image. CBS had reporters on the ground filming the construction work that Reagan showed the world spy photos of. The airfield from which Cuba would launch attacks against the U.S. Margaret Thatcher had to tell Reagan that Grenada was her territory.

‘not knowing that it was actually a United Kingdom possession’

You’d have thought the US govt might have checked that sort of small detail. One suspects the Queen (Grenada’s head of state, not Maggie) was Not Amused.

Simple point: Iraq will be a much stronger country. We have stabilized it’s money and given it a sense of direction. They will move the main capital to the rebuilt Babylon in an effort to remove any terrorist targets and mosque breeding grounds and the country will thrive. and all it will have cost America is everything.

Oh, then Babylon will be utterly destroyed and the end will come. I have it on good authority.

“The rebuilt Babylon … then Babylon will be utterly destroyed.”

That’s not an analysis of Iraq’s political future, that’s just the lunatic ravings of one of Domitian’s torture victims—-John of the Apocalypse (Revelation).

Talk about incapacity for political reality! GT would have fun with that one (“The Original Tea Bagger on Patmos, ca. 100 CE”).

Ps. Thanks for the correction, corzak. John loses me each time he begins a new vision. In ch. 17, the returning “beast” is apparently Nero reincarnated as Domitian, and John calls Rome “Babylon.”

Joe, Are you telling us that President Eisenhower sent troops into South Viet Nam for Lady Bird Johnson? Thanks for your ministering. (signed), “The Reverend”

There’s more to say, but thanks, Joe-Allen, for your service at Camp Drake.

BRIAN If a Republican got us into Vietnam as advisers, why did Johnson drop 10,000 tons of advice on our ALLIES a day? Oh yeah, the Democratic, almost constitutional Gulf of Tomkin. Resolution. Sorry you think Nixon’s opening diplomatic ties with China was a mistake. What method do you feel is better than diplomacy, Johnson’s guns and butter? Heaven forbid that you talk to a foe. Oh wait, didn’t Nixon and Ford get us out?

I realize we read different history books, but while you were dodging the draft in school, some of use served our county. You say I need government drugs, but you obviously took too many in those years you hid.

Like many men, I may suffer from survivor guilt at the Wall. Bet you don’t.

palin drome, Diocletian was 200 years later. You mean ‘Domitian”.

justice 22. Eisenhower did not send American troops in. That did not come until Kennedy. What Eisenhower did was create the expression “the domino effect” which caused the US to back the war to prevent the spread of communism. We did not prevent the spread and there was no domino effect. hmmmm

where did joeallenjoedoty’s comments go?

I did not serve in Vietnam.

I lost no family in Vietnam.

But I cannot contemplate that wall without coming to tears.

How, exactly, did the Vietnam War stop anything? Didn’t the North do exactly what they set out to do, take over the South? Everything that we fought there to prevent came to pass, and as a result nearly 60,000 Americans and countless thousands of others died for nothing.

Sorry if you think you served your country, Lewreader, but this country was not served by anything that was done there, just like Iraq.