Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for November 10, 2011

I am waiting…

CARRY-OVER FROM PREVIOUS STRIP I want to point out, before the GoComics switches to the next day’s strip, that I asked the question: What if China invaded Taiwan, would we ask to borrow money from China in order to fight China? I got a number of answers, all of them saying, in effect, that it wouldn’t / couldn’t happen because of one contingency or another. One said the existence of a nuclear North Korea’s would prevent it. Another said the existence of the U.S. 7th fleet would prevent it. Another said the existence of a trillion $$ debt that WE owe to China would prevent it. But not a single responder answered the question, which was WHAT IF IT DID happen? My response to three of these non-answers is this: • A nuclear N. Korea is so dependent on China that it would probably applaud the invasion, rather than prevent it. • The President would not allow U.S. 7th fleet to fight China for a number of reasons (we’re too tied up in Iraq-Iran, for one) any more than that we would intervene with boots on the ground in Libya (China being many many times more fearsome than Libya). • The trillion dollar debt WE owe to China doesn’t compare with the value in multiple trillions of dollars Taiwan represents to China. (China would waive the debt for possession of the economic powerhouse that Taiwan represents.) All right, “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”, let fly!

“… China would take Taiwan tomorrow.” I doubt that. “When China can project her forces farther than just off coast she WILL take Taiwan.” I don’t think this assertion is the case.

And before you say look at Tibet the only reason why China won that one was because Tibet has no real military and the supply line was over land and even then her forces (China’s) has difficulty keeping anything but ammunition up forward.

I would hold out that none of the above arguments against China’s taking of Taiwan is true. I think that China is not invading Taiwan (remember it has an older history of shelling Taiwan) now ONLY because China thinks that it can absorb Taiwan the same way it absorbed Hong Kong (from UK) in 1997 (i.e., without a fight).

Thanks for the link, strip still not on GoComics

China is not and has never been a historically expansionist country. If it had been, it would have colonised the Americas when Admiral Zheng He discovered it. The Chinese, with their Middle Kingdom mentality, simply didn’t consider areas not historically part of the Chinese Empire or over which the Empire didn’t exert suzerainty (like Korea, for instance) worth bothering with. As for Taiwan, why on earth should China want to invade it? Taiwan will fall into the Chinese orbit anyway when the US empire completes its self-induced implosion.And I’m Asian, so this is an Asian perspective.

Answering a question from yesterday: I know about American politics because American politics affects the rest of the world (including me) while American sports do not. Thank you for asking.

Thanks for the link; wish it didn’t include that annoying video (couldn’t care less about Dancing With *)Re: the strip; actually, there are Seven Demands, coming out of General Assemblies (though there are many things wrong, these should be a good start.)The other thing that needs done is get back to voters voting (on paper), counted by volunteers, in full public view_, with_out any opaque computers in the back room, under the control of our Corporate Masters. (/Soapbox)

While it IS appropriate to see things from other points of view, it is also true that China (like Japan, like Russia, like so many other countries nowhere near the US) has invaded other countries. For what it’s worth, I imagine China will at some point find its opportunity to regain Taiwan – but only when it is the most profitable and causes the least cost and disruption to the Party. Since the original question was, “What would the US do?” I’ll answer: Nothing but squawk.

And thanks for the link, rayannina.

Regarding my remark about bailouts yesterday…the law that established TARP was enacted by Congress, both of whose houses were run by the Democrats. Those Democrats (and their GOP counterparts) who helped to put it together or otherwise supported it still think TARP was a good idea. “TARP II” had some bank bailout provisions – it was signed by Obama and enacted by a Democrat-majority Congress..If I’m managing a campaign for a candidate of either party and I want #OWS votes (or Tea Party/conservative/libertarian votes, for that matter), I must run my candidate against his/her own party’s leadership regarding the bailouts issue, risking that candidate’s relationship with said leadership, and convince potential voters that my candidate will not cave on that issue when the political thumbscrews come out.

Why China may still invade Taiwan: “The Chinese Civil War (1927-1949/1950) was a civil war fought between the Kuomintang (KMT or Chinese Nationalist Party), the governing party of the Republic of China, and the Communist Party of China (CPC),6 for the control of China which eventually led to China’s division into two Chinas, Republic of China (currently known as “Taiwan”) and People’s Republic of China (Mainland China). The war began in April 1927, amidst the Northern Expedition,7, and essentially ended when major active battles ceased in 1949-1950. However there is debate on whether the war has officially ended. The conflict continues in the form of military threats and political and economic pressure, particularly over the political status of Taiwan." Source: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War 

MILITARY HISTORY OF CHINA BEFORE 1911 Ever since Chinese civilization was founded, organized military forces have existed throughout China. The recorded military history of China extends from about 2200 BCE to the present day.1 Although traditional Chinese Confucian philosophy favoured peaceful political solutions and showed contempt for brute military force, the military was influential in most Chinese states. The Chinese pioneered the use of crossbows, advanced metallurgical standardization for arms and armor, early gunpowder weapons, and other advanced weapons, but also adopted nomadic cavalry2 and Western military technology.3 In addition, China’s armies also benefited from an advanced logistics system as well as a rich strategic tradition, beginning with Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, that deeply influenced military thought.4 Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_China_before_1911

what strip?

LIST OF BATTLES / WARS IN ANCIENT (PRE-DYNASTIC) CHINA 26th Century BC – Battle of Banquan26th Century BC – Battle of Zhuolu – The Yellow Emperor defeats Chi You and establishes the Han Chinese nationality.1675 BC – Battle of Mingtiao1057 BC – Battle of Muyu1046 BC – Battle of Muye707 BC – Battle of Ruge-leading to reduced power and significance of Western Zhou684 BC – Battle of Changshao- The state of Lu defeats the Qi (state)632 BC – Battle of Chengpu – Duke Wen of Jin defeats the Chu commander Ziyu, in the biggest battle of the Spring and Autumn period.595 BC – Battle of Bi588 BC – Battle of An575 BC – Battle of Yanling506 BC – Battle of Boju478 BC – Battle of Lize453 BC – Battle of Jinyang353 BC – Battle of Guiling342 BC – Battle of Maling341 BC – Battle of Guailing293 BC – Battle of Yique269 BC – Battle of Yanyu260 BC – Battle of Changping230 BC–221 BC – Qin’s wars of unification Source: Wikipedia. Annotation by Wikipedia: “The list is not exhaustive.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_battles#Ancient_China 

…Time magazine showed a chart that the countries with the most regulations on it’s bussinesses showed the most growth.The U.S. -forth in freedom from regulations-was a stagnant wantta be.-though,this chart can be misleading,it makes me think of the chant,‘Freedom Isn’t Free’.Whom should profit from a company?Just the CEO’s ?Everyone that works there?The shareholders?The people that buy the product?

I would like to remind the good folks of GoComics Doonesbury comments blog: The U.S.-international space station is scheduled to decommission (it’s going down to burn up in the atmosphere), while the Chinese space station is aborning and flourishing. The Fermi collider (Batavia, Illinois) has lost its funding. And the Superconducting Supercollider (SSC) campus turned into a ghost town after Congress cut off its funding in 1993. True, the Large Hadron (protons & neutrons) Collider (LHC) underground in Geneva is basically a creation of the West (including U.S.), but the SSC would have been even bigger than the LHC. And the Space Shuttle is now a museum item, leaving our astronauts dependent on Russia to reach even low earth orbit (LEO).  Think “The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon (1776-1788). New American Century, bye-bye. 

We wouldn’t need to borrow money from China. We don’t need to borrow money from China now. They only hold 8% of our debt. They buy our debt because it is the most stable investment in the world. Heck, their holding 8% of our debt is a deterrant for them invading Taiwan because they don’t want to take the chance that we’ll stop paying interest to them.

@Pi,

You need to get off your apocalyptic high and come back to history as it unfolds before our eyes—-the actual present that Doonesbury caricatures.Instead of imaging some vague political apocalypse (a weakness of the Western/Christian POV), consider what Joanie may be thinking about those snakes both inside and outside Alex’s apartment.Start with jrmerm’s neat formulation: “one snake, one vote.”

I have no major differences with you, corzak. My question, What would we do IF CHINA DID invade Taiwan is hypothetical-though-possible she WILL have Taiwan with all its riches and all its continuing potential some day.  But my underlying point remains: how unfortunate our plight has become as a result of Reagan-revolution in living beyond our means plus the neocon arrogance-followed-by-economic-collapse that reich-wing W engineered for 8 years.  It still leaves us vulnerable to the smarter, slicker, harder-working China — who, despite all, still vows that the war to take back Taiwan and restore it to the ancient Chinese hegemony, whether now or 5 or 10 or 20 years ahead, is not yet over.  Taiwan is a historical part of China, more so even than even as Hawaii is to us. And if history had been different, the Islands would still continue to be a historical part of the U.S. — even if the Japanese had managed to prevail in WWII, capture and occupy Hawaii from Pearl Harbor onward. (Midway slammed that particular door shut on Japan.)  I still hold that the ONLY reason China doesn’t retake Taiwan NOW is that she is taking the easy way, waiting patently, till the “time ripe” arrives, just as she did before she resorbed another island, Hong Kong, from the UK in 1997 — i.e., without a fight.  History (above) shows that China will fight for what she wants, WHEN SHE wants . . . .

And, as someone pointed out, all we will do, in our strapped down state, in such a case would be to helplessly squawk foul!  While Russia, Iran, Pakistan, et al., like Persian cats in the sun, slyly open one eye each, and close it again.

Why would it be off-topic to ask where the strip is?

The strip is the real reason for this page, not the comments…

I don’t think they are saying they want nothing. They are saying they want fairness in the tax rates for the rest of us. They are saying they want fairness in treatment of those who go bankrupt because of medical bills, tuition, etc. They are saying they want the GOP to get real and start working on something for the good of the country, not just for themselves.

GEEzous! get a TALK SHOW, would ya?

Where’s the strip?

WILLIAM F. KNOWLAND William Fife Knowland (June 26, 1908 – February 23, 1974) was a United States politician, newspaperman, and Republican Party leader. He was a U.S. Senator representing California from 1945 to 1959. He served as Senate Majority Leader from 1953-1955, and as Minority Leader from 1955-1959. He was defeated in his 1958 run for California Governor. He succeeded his father, Joseph R. Knowland, as the editor and publisher of the Oakland Tribune. [several ¶s and boxes omitted.] Knowland became a caustic critic of the Harry S. Truman administration. He was critical of the actions in the “loss” of China to Communism and the Korean War. However, Knowland admired the former Senator from Missouri personally. Knowland was known as the “Senator from Formosa” for his strong support for Chiang Kai-shek and the Nationalist government in China against Mao Zedong and the Communists. A keen opponent of China’s accession to the United Nations, Knowland tangled with Indian statesman V.K. Krishna Menon over the issue, leading the latter to acidly recommend psychiatric treatment to the former.2 Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Knowland 

no strip thus no comment

Trudeau must have an account at MF Global. He’s too busy realizing his money is gone to draw a strip today.

My guess is that, if China decided to invade the ROC (Taiwan), the ethnic minorities in China such as the Uyghurs and the Tibetans would see an opportunity to rebel. These minorities, especially the Uyghurs, would find support form other Islamic countries and then the fat would really be in the fire. Unrest might then spread into the “stans” (Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, possibly Tajikistan) and might draw Russia into the conflict. The US might want to sit this one out.

China’s place in the world today can be directly attributed to Nixon – he didn’t just get his revenge against (the people of) California, but the whole USA.

Throw some cold water out the window on them…maybe they will wake up.

If they really wanted nothing they could stay home, keep quiet, and (to quote RHPS) “receive it in abundance”.

@DOOK: The Central Asian countries closest to Xinjiang, where the Uyghurs live, would not support an Uyghur rebellion against China for a variety of reasons and the other Muslim countries would have logistical problems to aid the Uyghurs. Don’t forget, the Han Chinese now represent at least 50% of the population of Xinjiang. When I was in Xinjiang, many I the Uyghurs I spoke to insisted they like things the way they are. Only the diasora Uyghurs are outspoken against Han domination, but because they are outside of China, they are ineffective except for providing propaganda.

Have you ever tried doing so? Have you ever noticed the caveats placed by Wikipedia on “expert” and “scholarly” attempts that are either faux or dum-dum or malicious? The organization protects itself. Ultimately you can “get away” with nothing.

A lot of them are chanting for socialism, so Panel 3 is a lie.

I’ll repeat my business idea from yesterday: Port-a-Showers.

Why I love Doonesbury after all these years: Deeply drawn characters, engaged in the stuff real people are engaged in, bouncing off each other in all sorts of ways that cannot be predicted. A lesser strip would still have Joanie and her grandkid tussling over the mess in the apartment. Instead they look out the window, and in each of their heads, the wheels start turning. Trudeau is the man.

“Never trust any post from Wikipedia, as anyone can go in and edit any post to make it say this: JFK killed Lee Harvey Oswald” Dare you to try it, Tigger. Then report back here what happens to your post!!!!!!!

Gosh where did this Chinese red scare come from? From what I’ve read about Chinese history, is that they have had enormous difficulties spreading power beyond their borders. They’ve been tangling with the Vietnamese for almost 2000 years, and ever since the Trung sisters they’ve mostly been getting the wrong end of the stick, including two border wars since the US involvement in Vietnam. I think China’s domestic challenges are enough to dissuade China from empire ambitions. Historically they’ve been picked on by outsiders more than they’ve threatened them. See the South Park episode, “God damn Mongorians”.

But if we do get in a fight, at least we have the Marine Corps. Today is the Corps birthday and every Marine is 236 yrs old, that is still young enough to protect the free world from the Chinese menace, just as they did during the Boxer Rebellion. I just hope the celebration goes better than last year. If anyone sees Legacyshooter tell him FriscoLou said “Happy Birthday old man.”

WOW…Great Postings! As for over 40 yrs, Doonesbury has ALWAYS been a place for opinions. It’s the best real time ‘toon out there. If you agree or disagree with his views.. It’s the dialog that keeps things moving forward. Something this current Congress cannot grasp. Hats off to inkslave and DTpi for their recognition of Trudeau….The MAN…The DUDE….The BEST!

Now & then I don’t see the strip (this or another one). So I CONTACT GoComix. At least I know I’ve tried. (See menu entry “Contact Us” under Help at the bottom of the screen.) Usually the strip comes into view within the next half hour. Not saying that I personally got it fixed. Just try again later.

@jrmerm; I have been assuming that some people have drums which they are drumming on.

Thanx for the service Sanfan, sorry they missed you on Letterman.