Luann by Greg Evans and Karen Evans for September 29, 2012

Crystal, spot-on, girl. Tiffany essentially admitted dressing to attract guys – same as many other girls, and they do have to expect unwanted attention dressed like that. It is just that the guys have to LISTEN when the girl say “no.” Unfortunately they often ignore the “no,” thinking she is being coy or playing the “proper” girl when she is not, but guys, “no” means no.Everything is much easier if girls don’t dress to attract attention.

Crystal you are HOT stay just as you are. Maybe lend that frock to Tiff see if it works for her.

Quite possibly Tiffany would not have rejected some people’s advances just as she WOULD have rejected other people’s advances. The main point to remember, though, is that Tiffany’s rejection should be accepted — not ignored. Clothes MIGHT suggest a green light, but no means no.

Or?

Leviticus – I am all over your first two sentences. However we haven’t seen even the slightest suggestion that there’s anything good about Les. Take a poll – I think you will find at least some people like Knute – but who would like Les?

Maybe rayannina means what Where Magazine sounds like if you put a model’s head over the middle letter:http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/WHERE-Magazine-Orange-County-Cover-Fail.jpg

Ladies, dress however you feel comfortable, but bear in mind the more you show off, the harder it is for us to act like gentlemen.

When you dress up as if your virtue is negotiable, you’ve got to expect a few slimeballs to pay attention. Flattering? No! Whorish? For sure. But not to worry—eventually they’ll be bouncing off your knees!

wow, have we descended back into the Victorian age? no, girls don’t need to dress like prostitutes but many of you are as much as saying that a girl is “asking for it” if she wears something tight or low cut. a girl should be free to wear what she wants without fear of some guy not taking no for an answer.

Re: Who likes Knute? The “Luann” strip is a comic with a serious edge creeping in & out. But Knute is the clown – you have to exaggerate the clown – otherwise – not a clown (remember Knute loves it when Stan Laurel pats himself on the head). Can Crystal rip his mask off? We could get some great theater – like with AE and TJ.

The thing is, clothes are not the issue, in old times, women would wear clothes that covered their total body and men would still get hot over the flash of a bare ankel showing. Men should just control their urges and accept NO as an answer!

Yuk. Who do you think you are?

I agree— Crystal’s much hotter than Tiff in that green dress.

Does Crystal think before she babbles? Seriously, Tiffany can’t look hot or she’s responsible for Leslie Knox sexually harassing her? Tiffany isn’t wearing anything indecent or out of line either. This is typical Crystal ragging on Tiff and passing it off as friendship…. Oh well, if Tiff can put up with it, I guess I should too….but geez!

If a were a teenaged Pittsville guy and saw these two coming down the hallway, Tiff wouldn’t have anything at all to be concerned about (unless my lack of attention to her were a concern). Crystal, on the other hand, even in that all-encompassing green-and-black outfit would definitely draw my attention. Clothes don’t make the woman, and they don’t “make” the man do anything, either.

Males are driven by visual cues. Blushing cheeks, big eyes, and red lips are all signals for arousal, and cosmetics simulate this. Add skimpy, revealing clothes, and male reactions are confused. All the signals he receive say “yes, it’s you”, but the voice and body language say “no, it’s not you”.

Old saying:

“If you’re not hunting, don’t go out loaded for bear.”

Today’s strip: Spot on!

So, was anyone raped or nearly raped in the school hallway between yesterday and today? Yes, someone had to deal with unwanted attention yesterday, I actually used that expression, but was it actually any form of actual sexual assault?Because if so, slime ball should be in jail. Creepy, yes, but criminal?The board went a bit off the rails yesterday.

What Tiff could be learning is why women typically change their presentation style when they hit about twenty. Way too much unwanted attention. I’m seeing it with young friends I know, the skirts are a little longer, the tops not so tight. It’s a shame, but they tell me that they get too noticed. I try to tell them that they don’t need to change on my account, but they just smile at me as if I just made a joke.

Have you noticed how much more conservative Crystal’s clothing has gotten lately? Considering her tattoo on her back, and her normal Goth-lite apparel, she’s a funny one to talk.

Just one more note on this entirely too-long arc: regardless of what a girl/woman wears, every teenage boy should be taught how to behave like a gentleman. We will ALWAYS encounter people dressed in ways we find inappropriate, lewd, or in some other way offensive. It’s how WE respond that counts – and young men need to learn what it means to be a gentleman at all times. For the record, being a gentleman does not include leering, making rude comments or unwanted touching.

Still blaming the victim here. Even if Tiffany dresses to attract boys, Les doesn’t have the right or permission to force himself on her. The way Tiffany dresses isn’t implicit permission to be attacked or harassed. No if ands or buts here. No one deserves to be assaulted just because they are there.

There are not two sides to this argument.

So. The MORAL of the Story is:

“Ladies, You may CHOOSE to Dress up like ‘Eye-Candy’ but in the END, You Cannot CHOOSE Your FLIES”.

I GOT it.

Oh, Waitress? COFFEE over HERE, Please.

Tiffany has a funny idea of what’s “flattering” today. I think that just might be the ugliest thing she’s ever worn.

Tiffany dresses the way she does to attract attention, she just gets bugged when it is the wrong person. As for Crystal’s attire, long skirt, nice blouse, high heeled boots. That works for me, not the “I am a tramp” school of attire. The problem is I am seeing the so called slut look in preteen clothing. We have lost Annette and embraced Madonna.

I think Tiffany and Ox would be a cute couple.

What I find MUCH more interesting than the storyline (and I’ve given up on this strip months ago…came back after reading discussion on Josh Fruhlinger’s site) is not the putrid “friendship” Crystal has for Tiffany but the attitude of some of the responders. Greg Evans might be a moral Talib, but a lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Crystal is an awful, awful friend. Yes, different clothes attract different types of attention. Yes, some outfits will cause more people to look or stare at you. That does NOT mean you deserve to be harassed and pursued even after you’ve turned someone down. Your outfit doesn’t determine whether or not you’re allowed to say ‘no’ to someone. Your outfit doesn’t mean it’s okay for someone to ignore you when you turn them down repeatedly and ask them to leave. If someone doesn’t listen to you when you say ‘no,’ that’s THEIR fault, not yours, no matter what you are or are not wearing. What is Crystal saying here? That if Tiffany wants attention from one boy, she is obliged to indulge every single boy, just because of her outfit? That if she dresses one way, all boys can’t help but want to try to harass (and potentially assault) her, and she deserves whatever they do to her? Seriously? Shame on Evans for contributing to the rape-apologist culture that tells women that if someone does something awful to you, you were asking for it. This is just disgusting. We have to see enough of this awful attitude in the actual news, we don’t need it in the comics.

Does anyone remember Tiffany is clueless?

For once Tiffany is right. A person should be able to dress as they wish.

Tiffany is an idiot.

Crystal is going to amount to something one day. Tiffany, not so much. Tiff will be some WWF wrestlers Trophy wife until it is time to trade her in on a younger model. She will then end up a bitter, older and alone.

Girls get to wear what they want and boys have to take a “no” when it’s given. Likewise for boys and the girls taking a “no”. This from the sister of a boy who was aggressively chased by several girls he wasn’t interested in way back in HS. “No” really is “no”. The manner of dress doesn’t matter – if we all wore gunny sacks it would still be a problem.

I am all for dressing modestly. However, even if a woman is stark naked it still doesn’t give any man license to force unwanted attention on her.

a true guy will listen to EVERY NO, EVEN if the girl is playing coy, and means yes……….. that way the guy will be sure to respect everyone……… and will force girls to always be honest, instead of playing the games of “yes means no, and no means yes”

Excerpt from a web page: “Boy, do you pedophile types make me sick. If it were up to me, my daughter wouldn’t be wearing a quarter pound of makeup and half a lacy camisole with her pink bra straps intentionally showing for the sake of your existence alone, but her self-esteem and identity are wrapped up entirely in her nascent superficial sexuality at the moment, and though I’d love to see her find a way to express herself that was a bit more, I don’t know, original than strutting around like the future backstage semen receptacle for Motley Crue’s third reunion tour from now, if I were to tell her to dress more modestly, she wouldn’t like that and might not be my friend anymore, and that’s very important to me….Now go on. Get. Continue on the filthy path you’re on. Go on and do whatever it is the depraved minds of slimeballs like you do with the mental images of nearly naked adolescent girls like my daughter behind closed doors. Just get out of my sight.”

(a) in re many of the comments, I always take no as no not because I’m a sensitive guy, but because if they mean no, fine, but if they’re being coy, I don’t want to play that game.(b) the blonde’s outfit is NOT “flattering”.© the blonde’s real problem is that she’s drawn (and given the personality) to be a sexpot, and all that the layer of clothes and makeup can do is modify the degree to which she looks trashy. (d) goth girl’s comments are too male to be believable, but of course the cartoonist is a guy.(e) goth girl and Knute are by far the most interesting characters in the strip.

Oh, BTW – if you want to further check out the above excerpt, this is it

yes, the way she dresses is an invitation to approach, but no still means “no.” One of the rare times I’m actually on Tiff’s side.

This is strip is basically saying “she’s asking for it.” That’s incredibly callous. It’s like we expect our men to behave badly, so we try to change women. Offensive to both genders.

Les also harassed Rosa, who was modestly dressed.

Did we not do this all day, yesterday?:-) With guys, you’ve got to say that again and again. They are could be pretty thick-headed especially with a pretty girl around.

While there are lots of men who deliberately practice self-control, and do not unwantedly touch or leer at a scantily clad female, there are others who deliberately choose not to have self-control, and allow nature to take its course. These may have enough self-control not to touch, but they will look as hard as they want. So far, there isn’t a law against a male looking at a scantily clad woman, and just as it isn’t against the law (to an extent) to say whatever you want due to the allowance of free speech, there should always be a “freedom to stare”. We shouldn’t legislate morality. A person should have the choice to look as hard as they want at anything. That’s their thing. I think you should have the right to be a “un-gentlemanly” as you want, as long as you don’t touch.

So if some guy is attracted to what Crystal is wearing she is inviting unwanted attention? That is absurd. You have NO control over what turns a guy on. Dress to look your best; a real man is a gentleman.

And, you provide here exactly the context in which these threads HAVE to talk about rape: because what is being said here, even with the stress on “No means No” and “look does not mean touch”, this is still a facet of the “she was asking for it” defense of rapists.

This is the cultural context, and sadly not a distant one: an 11-year-old was (two years ago, now) gang-raped by 18 or 19 men and teenaged boys in an East Texas town, and the community responded by saying that she was dressing like a slut, looked older, and was hanging out with older teenagers, so what did she expect. In Canada, a 16-year-old was drugged and raped at a party, and the response is to call her a whore and a slut and to say she was asking for it. And so many, many other examples.

I’m honestly sorry to bring up this kind of ugliness in the context of a discussion of a comic strip, but the point that I am making is that none of our entertainment happens in isolation from the culture that we live and breathe. When we hear “she was asking for it”, this is the rest of the context in which that exists.

Slut-shaming? REALLY? No means NO, no matter WHAT you are wearing.

There’s certainly nothing creepy about a 65-year-old man drawing Tiffany’s camel-toe in such detail.

I love Crystals clothing! I was just thinking how outstanding her outfit was today…

This and the last strip disgust me. Crystal, I now know is a full of herself BSer. Has no problem speaking “with authority” about a situation she did not witness. I have a feeling though that Mr. Evans does not see her as being a BSer.

I engage in a line of work that involves analogizing. (and when I was Tiffany’s age, I dressed exactly the way she does in the “at-issue” panels.)

If it had been the athlete Tiffany liked rather than Les who had shown Tiffany attention, she would not have resisted at all. In this case she resisted very emphatically when Les first approacher her. And it was after the initially emphatically resisted that he pinned her against the wall.

The attempt at analogizing the two situations fails. But Tiff has been two cowed by Crystal’s projection of superiority to stand up to her.

And it is because of the earlier emphatic rejection of Les that “no means no” is so relevant to these two strips.

Mr. Evans — you are screwing up royally and delving into things you know nothing about. You need to switch gears.

And, to the people getting all hot and bothered about the way Tiffany’s dressed, get over it.

Lots of high school girls her age dress this way at school. Those of you who have not been in high school for a while might find it to be a big deal because no one your age dresses this way, but in school, this is common. And it is summer!

And……there are lots of girls who dress this way who are sharp, accomplished, getting things done that the “judging” male commentators here could never ever hope or have hoped to accomplish. Girls dressed this way can “kick ass” in the world of accomplishment.

That Tiffany is not such a girl lends credibility to the BS stereotype of yesteryear.

Shame on you Evans.

No need to gratuitously trash teachers on this thread. Other than being a daughter of a couple, I know of many who pay for their students’ school supplies out of their own pockets. But it’s true that in the case of Luann’s school the authorities aren’t taking Leslie seriously enough as a threat to the safety of other students.

Is it quite possible both girls are right? Tiffany DOES have the right to dress how she wants (to a point) for better or worse, while Crystal seems fairly accurate with her “more honey draws more flies” take on it.

As for Crystal’s outfit looking “good,” however, I disagree. It looks like it started out as a Martha White Flour sack dyed green.

Yeah Lynne, I think that I finally got it, what with all the repetition. Sometimes us dads are quite dense and it takes a lot of repetition to get the message into the tiny brain cells we have..Let’s recap. 1) If a rapist wants a victim, he’ll select anything that moves and is vulnerable, regardless of what it looks like. 2) Any guy who hasn’t been trained to hear and respond correctly to “NO” will attack any girl who refuses his advances, regardless of whether she is dressed decently or “because she dressed like a slut”. 3) This type of guy will not be more attracted to “slut girl” than he is to an average girl, because both are seen to be equally easy and open to amorous adventures. 4) No girl should feel afraid that she would attract an undesirable male “because she dressed like a slut” because it’s the luck of the draw and the chances are equal that he will be attracted to somebody else than he is to her. 5) Consequently, a girl who “dresses like a slut” will have no need to fear that she is perceived to be more permissive than an average girl when approached by a well-trained sensitive male, and she can be sure that her attire, or lack thereof, will have no effect in discouraging his advances. After all, he knows that her seductive appearance is only due to her personal style and has nothing to do with her desire for sexual adventures..How foolish of me to be concerned about my daughter’s choice of clothing 30 years ago – I should have sought out some young woman to advise my wife and I instead of being needlessly concerned. I guess the old adage is true – “too soon old & too late smart”.

You know, this reminds me of what most struck me when I was on my first date as a teenager in the early ’70’s. Because I was walking with a guy, it was the first time I was able to walk down the main drag of our town without a gauntlet of harassment from the guys on the street. The difference was astonishing. BTW, I was an average looking girl wearing blue jeans and a long sleeved top most of the time.

You know, I think this discussion is getting diverted into too many directions. Yes, parents will always be concerned about how their daughters dress (although, sadly, that doesn’t keep them safe from sexual attack). But if we look at the jerk in question—i.e. Leslie, he has already shown that dressing like a “good girl” doesn’t make any difference in his approach. Crystal’s comments (whatever I may think of them) were beside the point.

So I take it that you do not regard cornering someone and refusing to listen to their screamed “Get AWAY from me!” as sexual harassment; in your mind this is just “trying to approach her.”

Let’s hope that women are able to stay well away from you.

At what point was Tiff “cornered”? You are implying the scream, and in NONE of the panels showing Les and Tiffany together, did he touch her. Additionally, when Tiffany wanted to be left alone, Les left.Did you miss this strip??

My wife, daughter, and dozens of female colleagues never have a problem with me.Well, not that you’ve noticed, obviously.

Funny thing – many “geeks” and “goofus” types grow up to become top professionals in their fields – if not company founders. Steve Jobs, Gary Gygax, etc. are good examples. How many kids like Les Knox ended up anywhere similar?

Greg Evans has been somewhat inventive lately. I am waiting for when he uses my (fantasy-fetish) idea about the old occult philosopher who wants to employ Bernice as a naked librarian in the lodge of a secret society.

This is why I dress modestly. And my coworkers can’t understand why. Maybe I don’t want to attract the kind of guy who would be attracted by those clothes.

Wow, really?

I never said that he actually touched her. That is your straw man. What I pointed out, that you are repeatedly “not seeing” and making excuses for, is the fact that he had her cornered and was refusing to listen to “no! Go away!”

In the first panel:

Tiffany yells. Note the difference in the word bubble. The fact that she yells, or screams, is not “implication”, it is what is portrayed there.

Leslie has her cornered. Note the arm against the wall.

Did he persist after being asked to leave? YES – He only left after he was implicitly threatened by Ox. He did not leave after repeated, and increasingly direct, words from Tiff, and was very clearly ignoring the fact that she wanted to be left alone, and the fact that you do not perceive this is precisely what worries me about you.

Your “real world” (at least, the one in your head) is clearly one in which that behavior is acceptable. That is not ok.

Denial: clearly not just a river in Egypt.

Love how you have spun this in order to defend Leslie. “if Les is aware of his rights as a student to not be harmed at the hands of another, he seems to have left on his own.” – Wow. Just wow.

Art reflects life.

Wow! At what point of animosity does the syndicate start deleting comments or close down the comment section? I don’t believe a single poster has alleged that no doesn’t mean no, or that trashy dressing justifies assault. However trashy dressing certainly is done specifically to attract sexually driven attention, and men are certainly going to notice. Somehow 45 years of modern feminism hasn’t been enough to train males to look at someone dressed like a hooker and see instead a sober intelligent woman. . . Appearances are important to perception. Situation is also important. High school and a bar are two different environments. No means no, and yes, if you look like a hooker people are going to think of you in those terms. What is there about that sentence that can be disputed?

What is all this sexist nonsense about Tiffany “asking for it”? A woman or a man should be able to wear whatever they want and not have to fight off nasty jerks like Les. He is responsible for his own behavior, not Tiffany.

As I said yesterday on this message board, Leslie harassed Rosa. She doesn’t dress as Tiffany does. This is NOT to say that provocative grooming is irrelevant to the Leslies of the world .. they bother any woman, even if she is covered in a burqa. If you dress for show, you will be noticed. If you dress like a thug, you will be assumed to be one.

I don’t believe it.

Mr. Vandelay, you can say it till you are blue in the face, but there is not a snowball’s chance that the women in your life are content with you.

By the way, I am asexual, so I am far from being a masculine male. I have no sex drives. I do not experience lust, or desire. So, perhaps I am your ideal kind of male?

Funny how you think I’m a prick….O_o

Art, I think you have made your position clear. It isn’t a good position, or a reality-based one, and it still makes me think that you have been one of the Leslies of the world. But it’s clear.

Yes men will see the outfit as a ‘green light’, however her answer should be respected. So when Tiffany says no it means no and if a guy chooses not to respect that then the blame is his.

Great job Greg on doing some hard-core ‘slut-shaming’.

@DavidHuieGreen

“Quite possibly Tiffany would not have rejected some people’s advances ".“I would like to take a moment to defend Tiffany’s honor. I don’t think that she is as bad as most viewers seem to believe. When she is with a boy, there might be some heavy petting, but I do not think that she allows more than that. Then again, she never accepted any of my date proposals, so how would I know?”-Please note i did not besmirch the lady’s honor. There is no dishonor in rejecting one suitor and accepting another’s attentions. Considering the location, I would not expect any “heavy petting” or other carnal activities right then and there. It would more likely be limited to simply accepting the attention and ensuing conversation. What came later would be for later to determine.

Right!

I love this comic strip, but I don’t love this particular comic… Assuming that what a girl/woman wears means to expect a lack of self control from males, demeans boys/men. They can’t exhibit self-control when they see a bit of cleavage? Although Tiffany is not being physically assaulted, the assumption is that there is a chance she might…And when that concept is viewed over and over again in the media, it actually becomes accepted. Here is a great quote…

“When somebody says, “I don’t think women should be raped for wearing short skirts, but what do they expect when they do go out like that?” what you are actually saying is that if a woman in a short skirt is raped, you will be less likely to hold her rapist culpable. Which makes a woman in a short skirt really appealing to a rapist. That’s something that you did. That’s not something the woman in the short skirt did, or something the rapist did. You made that woman a more comfortable target by making it clear that if she got raped, you would be less upset about it, less willing to see the rapist go to jail, less willing to support the woman.” I would love to see Greg Evans go forward with this idea in his strip, to help educate people about how attitudes and words inform action.

Leaving aside for the moment the whole Knute vs. Leslie issue (I refuse to “dignify” Mr. Knox with the nickname he wants), the bottom line is this:YES, Tiffany habitually dresses to attract, and that will sometimes draw flies as well as hummingbirds. That’s the price she has to pay. NEVERTHELESS, when she says “no” she has the right to let it stand as NO, and I don’t CARE whether it’s Knox, Knute, Chad Steele, Quill, or ANYONE ELSE. When she says No it means NO!Of course, if she says yes, that also means YES – until she says NO, even if it’s halfway through whatever she said Yes about. Although sometimes, by then, it’s too late.

If you present yourself as a sex object then that just in and of itself speaks of your own perceived function. It’s pointless to get upset when you’re treated as a sex object after the fact.

Knute is a lucky guy with that girl :)

“You can’t choose your responders, just your response.” —Crystal.